Creating What's Next w/ Denise Logan

🌟 Creating What’s Next

🤔 Life is Full of Opportunities for those who make Brave and Courageous Choices. But, it is our Self-Awareness, Calm, and Observation Skills that will give us Permission to Change and Grow. Therefore, tune in and listen to our guest, Denise Logan and Discover how to Navigate the Biggest Transitions in Life.

🌟 What We Discuss with Denise:

👉 ⁃            Deep Self Awareness, Calm, and Observation Skills

👉 ⁃            Giving Yourself Permission to Change and Grow

👉 ⁃            Navigating the Biggest Transitions in Life

🌟 About Denise:

Weaving together her background as a lawyer, mental health professional and business owner has enabled Denise Logan to deftly guide hundreds of business owners and their professional teams as they navigate the complex emotional journey of selling their business and letting go into their own version of what’s next.

Denise knows that to business owners, selling a business is more than a transaction. To them, it is an emotionally fraught period of transition, filled with unexpected highs and lows, with no clear vision of what waits at the end for them and their family. Her passion for this work is colored by her own experience of being an unprepared business owner who made an abrupt and choppy exit from her company, after ignoring the signs that it was time for several years.

Her own exit was followed by several years traveling in a 36-foot motorhome all over North and Central America, on her own, with two sweet little dogs, but that’s a story for another day.

Denise’s two decades of research and thought leadership on the subjects of work, money and meaning and how executives navigate the waters of transition and reclaim their sense of identity outside of their business has made her a popular speaker to audiences on three continents and a frequent commentator on the subjects of business succession planning, transition and legacy. 

🙏 Thanks, Denise! Reach out, connect, and follow Denise across her social platforms:

👉 -       LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/deniselogan/

👉 -       Twitter: https://twitter.com/DeniseLoganUSA

👉 -       E-mail: denise@deniselogan.com

🌟 Resources mentioned in the

Pre-Order my Latest Book: "Unbreakable Alliances: A Spy Recruiters Authoritative Guide to Cultivating Powerful & Lasting Connections" HERE

Unlocking the Power of Trust: Keynote Speaker Robin Dreeke Shares Secrets to Creating Allies - Robin is the former Chief of the FBI's Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program. With over 30 years of experience in recruiting spies and building trust, Robin is the world-renowned speaker you need. Don't miss out on the opportunity to learn from a true expert. Contact us now to book your event! Click HERE to book a time to chat.

🤔 Take Robin's FREE YouTube Keys to Communication Online Course HERE.

😃 Check out Robin's Speaking, and Training Services HERE.

Transcript

Robin: 0:04

Welcome to the Forged by Trust podcast. I'm your host, Robin Dreeke, executive coach, former US Marine, spy recruiter, bestselling author, and your trust and communication expert. Today's episode, creating What's next, is brought to you by my good friend, the Seller Whisperer, Denise Logan, and her inspiring book, the Seller's Journey. Transition expert Denise Logan offers the only credible solution to tackling one of the most significant causes of deal failure seller's remorse. The seller's journey unravels the emotion, fueled obstacles to closing a sale and shows us how to resolve them. This book is a must read for both business owners and their advisors as they navigate one of the most vexing chapters in their lives as they sell their businesses Advisors who understand that a business owner's transition is more than a transaction will buy this book, by the Truckload, and change the world one deal at a time. Coming up next on the Forge By Trust podcast.

Denise: 0:57

It's all about how sometimes in our life it looks like, how do those things go together? But there is almost always some kind of a thread that if you're able to pull it, will show you the through line to someone's life. The advice I needed was, it's okay to make a change even if the people around you don't understand what that change is. And we dropped into what are the things that we are unwilling to do because we are afraid of other people's judgments, of other people's thoughts of what people will say and how we keep ourselves stuck in a life that is not actually our life.

Robin: 2:07

Today's episode, what's next is with my good friend and inspiration, the incredible brave Denise Logan. Weaving together her background as a lawyer, mental health professional, and business owner has enabled Denise Logan to deftly guide hundreds of business owners and their professional teams as they navigate the complex emotional journey of selling their businesses and letting go into their own version of what's next. Denise knows that to business owners, selling a business is more than a transaction to them is an emotionally fraught period of transition filled with unexpected highs and lows, with no clear vision of what waits at the end for them and their family. Her passion for this work is colored by her own experience of being an unprepared business owner who made an abrupt and choppy exit from her company after ignoring the signs that it was time for several years to move on. Her own exit was followed by several years, traveling in a 36 foot motor home all over North and Central America on her own with two sweet little dogs. But that's a story for another day, and one you'll hear inside as well. Denise's two decades of research and thought leadership on the subject of work, money and meaning, and how executives navigate the waters of transition and reclaim their sense of identity outside of their business, has made her a popular speaker to audiences on three continents and a frequent commentator on the subjects of business succession planning, transition and legacy. During the episode today, we talk about deep self-awareness, calm and observation skills. Giving yourself permission to change and grow and navigating the biggest transitions in life. Denise Logan, the seller Whisper. Welcome to Forged by Trust.

Denise: 3:43

Finally, I'm so glad to be with you, Robin.

Robin: 3:48

I'm glad to have you here. And as we were just talking a second ago, you never know where this journey's going to take us, but we know the destination and the destination is trying to understand how you impact people's lives with what's next. Mm-hmm. And so I have my one opening question for you, and that's this. You are a master of change and transition for people's lives and helping them feel safe during those changes and transitions and really turbulent times in their lives. What did you wanna do when you were growing up that kind of was this thread and spark throughout your life, do you

Denise: 4:25

think? Hmm. So interesting cuz I wrote a column several months ago called The Thread and the Through Line. I love it and it's all about how sometimes in our life it looks like, how do those things go together? But there is almost always some kind of a thread that if you're able to pull it, will show you the through line to someone's life. So let's see, because I know enough about your show and your listeners and viewers, I think the core underneath almost everything that I have done or do in my life comes back to you have permission to care

Robin: 5:12

What gave you permission to care. Yeah.

Denise: 5:15

So young. I think it was I actually had a, a fun conversation with someone recently about this, that I am still trying to make sure others around me have permission to care in an effort to unravel that feeling as a child, that people around me saw things that were happening but didn't think it was their place to act. So at some deeper level, and fortunately I'm aware of that, so I can tune into it and harness it. Growing up in a household where there was some pretty intense violence and in a setting where there was intense gun violence around, one of the things that I realize is that there were adults around me who had to have seen and known things that were going on, but looked away. Or made decisions that they didn't want to get involved. And so at an unconscious level, until I made that really an awareness for me, I think I have been trying to show others. You actually do have permission to care, and when you will use the tagline from the airport, if you see something, say something. Right. I think that's an essential element of what I am still trying to do in the world. If

Robin: 6:45

you don't mind, sharing, I'm, I'm curious, do you remember the first time that you became aware that, all right, something's not right?

Denise: 6:54

Hmm. Super young. Super young. In fact, I, I often joke that I wondered whether, and I shouldn't say joke because it, I'll use laughter around it sometimes to soften the impact for other people. But even as a child, I wondered, did I fall out of the stork basket? how did I end in this place with people who I don't actually think I belong to? Right. And that was a, a sense from very young. And I think as children, what we know from just how, how our brains are wired is that we look for ways to try to fit in. We look for ways to accommodate. You know, it's really

Robin: 7:42

fascinating. Besides tragic, it's fascinating that you realize that a young age that you weren't fitting in and you thought you fell out of a stork basket, And I say it's fascinating because normally when we're surrounded by only one behavior, that becomes the only behavior. So we don't have a dichotomy in balance. But you were seeing a behavior somewhere else that'll let you know that this is not right. Something's not right. Do you remember what and how you saw that made you say, I'm different than this?

Denise: 8:15

Hmm. You know, you're so right, Robin, that for example, I have a, I have a younger brother who even though we were only 13 months apart, I wanted to get as far away from what I grew up in and saw, and he doubled down. Hmm. And so I think that's an interesting piece about how that develops for individuals. I know we've dropped very quickly. Your listeners are like, oh, we didn't beat around the bush at all. We dropped Right. In. Which I think is the nature of how we build safety and trust, right. For others is the willingness to come forward. So I remember a next door neighbor, it's probably an early instance. Her name is Mrs. Martin. And Robin, you and I are, are contemporary, so all adults only had the first name of Mr. Or Mrs. Right? So I couldn't even tell you at this point as a grown woman what her real first name was. Right? Right. She was Mrs. Martin and she lived next door. And I would say she was a neighbor who saw, hmm, that little girl needs someone in her life. And so she was the neighbor who would invite me over to have like tea and cookies and be able to come next door. And growing up in the system that I did, they didn't really want outsiders to, to be able to observe or see what was happening, right? And so pretty soon there was an eight foot tall fence built between our two houses. Oh my gosh. By my family, Right? Not by Mrs. Martin. Right. And cutting off contact. And pretty soon there was a disruption in being able to interact with that helpful neighbor. And so throughout my, my childhood for sure, and probably long into my adult life, I looked for who are the people who are awake? Oh, that's a great question. Who sees what's happening? And even in my life now though, that is a question, certainly we are living in times where some people are asleep and some people are awake. Right. And I often have that question for myself, who is awake and who is open to. A conversation where we drop one layer deeper from news, sports and weather

Robin: 10:53

Right. Wow. So Mrs. Martin modeled the behavior that made you feel safe. Mm-hmm. So when you were younger, you had a behavior of what you wanted for safety, and you knew what didn't make you feel safe. Mm-hmm. Did you start forming, all right, this is the path I wanna start walking yet. Like what did you want to do later in life?

Denise: 11:13

Oh, so fun. My very best friend and I growing up read every Perry Mason book, There was. we saved our money and we would go to the used bookstore and we would buy tattered copies of Perry Mason. Then we would swap them. And who and who introduced you to that?

Robin: 11:32

That's

Denise: 11:32

interesting. I don't even know. That's just really a fun, I, that would be, maybe I'll journal about that. Yeah. I'm kind of a journal person, so I might journal and have a little thought about where did I first find a Perry Mason book? I wonder if it was on Mrs. Martin's bookshelf or something in her room. I don't think so. I don't know. Fortunately reading was kind of a little bit, not an escape, but it was a, it was definitely a way I occupied absolutely my time. So she and I decided that we were going to be lawyers from the time we were super little. There were no lawyers in our, in either of our lives and our backgrounds. So, and I think it's curious, looking back on. Why we even thought we could be lawyers, because if you remember, Perry Mason was the lawyer and the female characters in every Perry Mason book were secretaries or fem fatals. Right. So isn't it lucky that we decided we wanted to be lawyers and not fem fatals? That could have been a whole other conversation you and I would be having

Robin: 12:39

right now. Right. Well, it's also very interesting too, at that time period that we grew up and, and you're reading Perry Mason books, that someone is also modeling the behavior that, that wasn't off limits to you. Mm-hmm.

Denise: 12:53

Yeah. And I don't know who that person was. Yeah. In my life, who the person was because, so the, the household that I grew up in, neither of my parents had graduated from high school. Right. So advanced education was not on the table as something that was planning. When the time came and I had early admission, I decided I wanted to leave after 11th grade and I got admitted to university and had a scholarship, but I needed a little more money and my parents had not put money aside. And I don't actu, I'm probably the oddball at this time in life, but I don't actually think parents are obliged to pay for their children's education if you can, but Right. That's, and there definitely was no money set aside. And so I went to the local banker back at a time when the local banker lived in the same community that we lived in. Right. Just in a s in a better house right now that isn't always what our experience is of banks and bankers. And so I went to the banker and said I needed a$2,500 student loan. And you did this on your own? Yeah. To make up the gap. And so he sent me home. And how old and how old were you at the time?

Robin: 14:09

16. And where did you grow up?

Denise: 14:12

Yeah. I grew up in Southern Ontario, Canada. Okay. And yeah. Where, where'd this bravery come from? I think it's a survival instinct, actually. That's what I think. And so went to the banker, he sent me home with student loan documents and my father was not about to sign loan documents for anything. And so this is just the naivete of being a young person, right? I went back to the banker and said, so how can we make this happen? And he made an unsecured$2,500 student loan to a 16 year old.

Robin: 14:53

Oh, you just sparked my favorite question in the world,

Denise: 14:56

so I'm gonna give you the, a little more about this cuz and then I'll come back to your final question. Right, So I was super happy off, I went on my merry way and definitely it was my escape, right? From a system that I did not belong in and did not wanna return to. And so then I went on, years later I went to law school and it was at that point in my life that I realized, hmm, that probably wasn't bank policy for Mr. Finn Again, we don't know his first name, but Mr. Finn to make an unsecured student loan to a 16 year old girl. And so by the time I realized that, I went back to ask him why had he taken that risk, he had already passed away. Oh, and. It's an interesting question. What did he know or see? You know, my question made him willing. Oh, see, I'm so glad. But it's a question that has, has lingered for me. What did he know? What did he see either in my circumstances or in me as a person, that made him willing to make that decision? Because I think we can all agree that was probably outside of bank rules and he stuck his neck out. Of course I did pay the repay, the student loan but long after he had taken that kind of risk. So there was a person, I think there are people who step into our lives and we all have them, right? They are these little, you can call them angels or guardians, folks who step in. And my question always for people when I'm talking about this topic is, Where have you been that for someone else? And are you aware enough to spot the instances where you're being called to be that? And it doesn't even have to be as dramatic as, right. It might be as innocent as Mrs. Martin, the next door neighbor. Yeah. Or as I'm going to use the word dramatic, because that was a dramatic change for me in my life as Mr. Finn. Ah, there,

Robin: 17:13

there's two tracks. I'll still, are you having fun?

Denise: 17:15

I thought this, my gosh would be Oh my gosh. A super fun conversation. I've been, yes. So looking forward to it. Me

Robin: 17:21

too. So first let's talk about a second for Mr. Finn and what he saw again. Yeah. You were emanating a personal brand at this age, obviously. Mm-hmm. because he saw that brand. What else were other people seeing, do you think? What was your behavior? How were you interacting? What kind of jobs did you have? I mean, you had a brand that was out there that was emanating energy from you. What do you think that was

Denise: 17:48

that they saw? Hmm. I have some really conflicted feelings about the term personal brand, I'll start there. But it's an interesting piece because I often think people get so focused on identifying something that isn't them. Right. This branding concept.

Robin: 18:09

I'm curious what people saw of what was, in other words, your organic and, and your original

Denise: 18:16

self Yeah. So I was definitely on a focus, right? I did not wanna stay. In those circumstances. And so I was headed somewhere else. You know, even though early on, and we've talked about the fact that I wanted to be a lawyer, even from a young age, and I think that was about righting wrongs. I don't even think I knew what being a lawyer was going to be like other than what I had read. So it definitely was about being a warrior for rightness, warrior for

Robin: 18:50

rightness. I love that.

Denise: 18:52

I'm quite certain that that's what it was, but I had a guidance counselor so that, you know, there's a little sidetrack that happens because my undergraduate degree was not in anything that was related to law. My undergraduate degree was as a social worker, and that came about. Of course it was but it came about. It's so interesting, right? It fits with, with my current life, but. It came about as an impact from, I'll say a negative impact from someone. So a guidance counselor whose name I won't use because I don't want to shame him, but at the time he, I had my eyes set. I wanted to be a lawyer and he said, you don't wanna be a lawyer. If you are a lawyer, you will never meet a man and you will end up all alone as a spinster. Now imagine I was 15 or 16 years old at the time. Well, I don't want that. That sounds like a horrible life to me. And I think your listeners should have some context for this. This is 1980, not 1950. Right, And can we all agree that that man probably should not have been giving career advice to young women? Right. And so then I found myself in university. Studying to become a social worker. When I realized, wait, he was wrong. Of course, I could be a lawyer if I wanted to be a lawyer and eventually did make my way to law school. So it's also not unusual that I became a social worker. It's a thread and my specialty focus there is in two tracks. One is work and financial disorders, so people who are addicted to work and money, and the other is Thanatology, which is the study of death and dying. Hmm. At the time I couldn't have told you why those two things fit together, but it's quite clear to me at this point in my life working with business owners and their advisors as they navigate the exit of their business, how a work or financial disorder combines with our desire to stay away from death and dying. Hmm. To keep people stuck. Right. So, I would not have guessed that I would choose to be a social worker in my early life. And that was a detour caused by what I would say were the unthinking wordss of a person who showed up as a guide in my life.

Robin: 21:34

And what things did you take from being a social worker? What more did you take that led into being a lawyer?

Denise: 21:42

Hmm. Again, there are places where we get to step in and make a positive or a negative impact in someone else's life. And can we do that in a way that is conscious and intentional? And I certainly saw lots of ways where that wasn't happening.

Robin: 22:04

You've hit the theme a few times and I think it'll be a good, it's a good thread. Another fantastic thread in your life, and that is the being aware and being able to observe. What do you think made you so self-aware and observantly? Safety.

Denise: 22:22

Safety, safety. For many years I would ride in a car and I can see every hawk in the trees when I'm driving on a highway or I notice when things are out of place. I learned that as a safety skill as a child, noticing when things are out of place, noticing what facial expression changed. So I think as, and maybe I was born wired that way, but I, I definitely know from an environmental perspective, I learned very early on to be highly attuned to. Environmental cues and to shifting, I'm gonna use the word shifting energy, and I don't mean that in a woo way, although it definitely has that perspective as well. But I learned to notice very early on what was changing around

Robin: 23:23

me. So we have this thread, we have these beautiful things. We're very aware, we're self-aware, we're observant. We have background experience. As a social worker with other people, we've now moved into the world of law. What was that experience

Denise: 23:39

like? Oh, I remember being so out of place in law. What made you feel outta place? So I didn't know anything about being a lawyer, which I think is kind of fascinating, right? You know, don't you think it's crazy that we ask our children when they're 17, 18, 19 years old to choose. what will you be in the future? What will you be when you grow up? Mm-hmm. And to choose a career path without really knowing anything about it. So all I knew is that I had this internal drive to be a lawyer and I was probably about, I dunno, 10, 12 weeks into law school. And I realized I am way over my head. This is so much more work, so much more thinking. Not that I wasn't prepared to think, but in a completely different way. And there was a professor who I confided that in who again reflected back to me my capability and I. Otherwise, I probably would've dropped out. I probably that day feeling overwhelmed would've said, this isn't for me. I don't belong, and would've left. And so

Robin: 25:00

I love that. Reflected back to you, your capability. What did he, what did he reflect back to you?

Denise: 25:06

I don't even recall his exact words, but it was definitely the, yes, you might feel overwhelmed, but this is the place where you belong. And so I don't even think he used the word belonging. Right. But it was the, you've got this. That's the feeling you had. You can do it that sense. And I stayed. So what was next? Hmm. So I graduated from law school early, as you can tell, I was on kind of a speed racer path. right.

Robin: 25:39

right. What were you racing towards, you

Denise: 25:41

think? I was racing from not toward. All right. Definitely moving away from and toward a sense of thinking perhaps I would have a greater sense of control in my life. When is that what you thought would be? I landed. Is that

Robin: 25:56

what you thought would make you feel

Denise: 25:57

safe? Mm-hmm. probably, probably. So I finished my undergrad in five semesters, worked for a period of time, and then was 22 when I graduated from law school, which is four or five years earlier than most people. Yeah. Choose to, to finish them and step immediately into a law practice. And how lucky am I that there was a law firm that had a role for me?

Robin: 26:34

Okay. I, I'd love it when guests say lucky, because as soon as you're saying you, you're 22 years old and you have a law degree and someone hired you right away. Denise, what did they see? Tell me about how you treat people, how you treated people back then. Because as you know, cuz you and I are so aligned with a lot of thinking. Anyone can flip switches and widgets and, and be a lawyer or anything. But what gets us hired, what gets us to loan, what gets us these jobs? And we're 22 years old and a lawyer is us. It's our ability to forge relationships and make other people's lives easier. What word do you think they are seeing? Oh,

Denise: 27:14

that's so, oh, this is such a fun conversation. So I will tell you that the people who knew me when I was a lawyer would probably not recognize me in this part of my life because I was a hard ass. So instead of thinking about how could I make those relationships easier, I was definitely on a, how am I going to be the tough one in the room? And it took me years later to realize that my power doesn't come from overpowering others. So I started in a law firm. Oh, this is, so I had two different offers. One was with a very large New York City firm, and one was with a teeny tiny firm in Washington DC And the difference in salary was enormous. Right. I think the New York firm, the offer was somewhere around$80,000, which was a lot at that time. Sure. And the Washington DC firm was around$26,000. And I remember sitting at the kitchen table having this conversation with my dad, and he said to me, I don't know why you're struggling to make this decision. and I chose the smaller firm, and I chose the smaller firm because I would be able to make an impact right away. I knew if I went to the larger firm, well, it would be economically more sensible probably to take that job. I would spend most of my time in the law librarian for carrying the briefcase of a partner. The firm that I ultimately settled in with had me in court right away. I probably wasn't ready to be in court candidly. And

Robin: 29:08

they maybe I, I, I think you probably were given what you've already been doing,

Denise: 29:13

so, but they had the place Right, right. I was able to step right in, which was super amazing. And eventually within just a couple of short years, I had spun out and created my own firm. And

Robin: 29:28

what impact did you wanna make at that age? That's a good question.

Denise: 29:34

You know, I ended up practicing condominium and Homeowner Association law was the kind of law that we practiced. And so it was representing associations and. That's such a good question. What was the impact that I wanted to make? There's the impact for others and probably the impact for me and the impact for me is the one that I'm going to to share. Cuz I don't know that I even was thinking about the impact for others. Yes. There's no doubt at the time. Yeah. The impact was I was going to make this mark and demonstrate that I had, I had surpassed where I came from and. There's a, I don't even know who is the singer. Is it a Taylor Swift song? It's like, why You gotta be so mean. Oh yeah, yeah. Right. Is that the song? I don't know if it's the mean. Is that the same? Yeah. And I, whenever I hear that song, it's kind of like, I think the theme song for that young woman that I was Right. Why You gotta be so mean, I'm gonna make something of myself. And so I think that's what I was setting out to do in the process. You know, if you imagine anyone who lives in a planned community knows that there are people on the boards of directors. I always say there are three types of board members in a, in an association. There are those who are civic-minded and altruistic and they are doing their civic duty. And there are only a few of those There are those who have an issue. They hate the parking, they hate the architectural committee. They wanna make a change. And then the vast majority of board members are the third category, which are people who have no control in their daily life and want to boss their neighbors. Lots of your viewers are laughing right now, Cause you can peg them, but they masquerade.

Robin: 31:30

I'm pegging myself years ago too. that's

Denise: 31:34

laughing, right? But they masquerade as if they're category one or category two. Right. And so long story short, we ended up building quite a successful practice and representing almost a thousand associations along the eastern seaboard. And yeah. So what was next? Eventually I realized that I didn't want to be a lawyer anymore.

Robin: 32:03

Why was that? What wasn't fulfilling? Hmm.

Denise: 32:10

A couple of things. The firm had grown quite large. And as the leader and business development person for the firm, I felt the pressure of needing to feed lots of other hungry mouths. Hmm. And while I loved that role of being out in the community and attracting clients and leading litigation for the firm no longer, that mask didn't fit anymore. And I had reached a point where I didn't want to be in that place of constant conflict as a lawyer, and I didn't know how to dial it down. Hmm. How to not be in that place of conflict. And I was burned out. So I knew I needed to make a change. Probably four or five years before I actually gave myself permission to make the change. Because each time I approached the, I don't think I wanna practice anymore. If you can imagine, right? By that point, I was in my mid to late thirties, had a successful business and people around me would say, oh, you're just burned out. Go on vacation, buy a boat. Do right? This is our culture tells us, get something. Don't deal with what's happening inside. So there wasn't actually a lot of affirmation around me for the change that was happening inside. Can you notice that I work with people now around transition Yeah.

Robin: 33:50

Cause I, because what's really spiking my curiosity in there, you are really highly self-aware of. Who you are today, and I'm curious was had you discovered yet that you can't do this alone? Back then, did you let anyone else in close enough to be a loving critic?

Denise: 34:10

The challenge was that almost anyone who I invited in at that time was giving me the kind of advice that I often watch business owners get now, which is, but if you just doubled down, you can make something so much bigger and you can scale it and then you'll be able to sell it for even more. That wasn't the advice that I needed. Right. The advice I needed was, it's okay to make a change even if the people around you don't understand what that change is. That's big. And so eventually, I. Unconsciously. And I will say this was actually for all of the consciousness that I have and the awareness of what's happening, I didn't yet know that I could simply say, I don't want to. Instead, I unconsciously said about creating a whole bunch of little disasters. Hmm. That would, we can imagine that in the back of my mind there was a voice that was saying, is that a big enough disaster to let me out yet? No rats. Alright. I'll have to think of something else. Something else. Something else. And I have been, oh, I'll tell you a turning point that happened for me. I was on the board of directors of a trade organization. I'd been on for several years, and they had an event, you know, a team building event. Are you cringing right now? Because no one likes those. And so they brought in this facilitator, put us in a ballroom on like a Tuesday night in Alexandria, Virginia, and we had to stand in a circle already. No one's liking this. And we had to introduce ourselves to each other without using a traditional moniker. So you could not say, I'm Denise, I'm a wife, I'm a mother, I'm a lawyer. What else is there about you? And I remember thinking like, what what else is there? And so as this question was making its way around the room, there was a woman who said, well, I play the harp at the bedside of the dying in hospice. And I was like, well, that's something. Yeah. And then the man next to her talked about, A car that he was restoring in a garage as a secret surprise for his son's upcoming 16th birthday. And how every night when he got into bed, he was worried his wife would see the dirt under his fingernails and it would blow the surprise. I was like, well, that's something. So it's making its way around the circle and I start getting panicky because I don't have anything else. So I thought, oh, this is a good time to excuse myself to the lady's room. So I take my purse and I go to the I Act, exit the ballroom, and to the right is the lady's room. To the left was the parking lot, and I bailed. Wow. I left the room, I left the event. I got in my car and I drove home crying in the rain because I realized that I had lost myself in my business. That for me was one of the early turning points of realizing I need to do something different and I don't know what that is. What could that be? How do I allow myself an exit from this? I'm sure it was super terrifying for my husband at the time, for me to come home and announce that, well, who am I other than all of this. He was like, well, well why do you need to be anything other than that? I can only imagine how frightening that must have been for him to watch his, his partner unravel. And not know what was coming. So for the next several years before I gave myself permission to ultimately exit, I refer to it kind of as a mask. Right. It was cracking. Yeah. And I had duct tape on the inside or scotch tape, right. Holding that mask of I'm okay together. But each time I tried to put it back on, it fit less well. Right? Until eventually I was actually able to make the decision. And it was even the decision itself. I had been driving to work for several months trying to figure out what angle to hit my car on the embankment, to flip my car, not to kill myself, but that would be a big enough disaster that people would say, oh, of course. Of course you need out of your business. And that was a huge wake up moment for me that I realized I don't have to have a disaster. I can actually say I don't want to do this anymore. You were looking

Robin: 39:33

for permission from others. Mm-hmm. to do what you need to do for

Denise: 39:36

yourself. Yeah. And eventually I found that permission within, and that's an exercise I actually do with clients a lot about the permission slip. Yeah. Who are you waiting for to sign the permission slip and can't we just forge their name on it? What a great, it's often fascinating for me to hear what comes up. I had this come up with a client a couple of years ago when we were doing this exercise and he realized it was a boss he had worked for 20 some years earlier. Mm-hmm. And so I said to him, well, you have two options. You can either forge that man's name on your permission slip. Hmm. you could go and have a conversation with him and see would he just give you permission to change your life or you could decide that you're actually the person who can give yourself permission. So you

Robin: 40:35

gave yourself the permission to take the

Denise: 40:37

medicine? I gave myself permission. And what was that? I left my business, I got rid of my house and I bought a motor home and I ran off for what I thought would be six months. And

Robin: 40:49

this you And this is where I got my goosebumps, cuz you do what I do. Yeah. We love our motor homes. I'm sorry, I digress. Keep going. Sorry Denise. Go

Denise: 40:55

ahead. Loved it. We could have a whole conversation about traveling in a motor home. I thought it would be six months and it turned into several years where I traveled all over North and Central America and it turned into several years of just adventure.

Robin: 41:14

What ache in you did that fulfill?

Denise: 41:18

It was about reclaiming myself and choosing who I could be next. And I didn't really know one of the things that was so fun, you know, at the time I was in my late thirties, I did not look like the other people who were out full-time in a motor home, right? I look more like them now than I did then. And inevitably I would, you know, and, and I had also gotten divorced in the process. And so I was on my own out in this 38 foot motor home, towing a little car behind. And I would back it in, get everything set up and you could see like the, I'll say the old guy in his lawn chair across the way going, where's the man? Where's the man? And pretty soon, one or both of you know, husband and wife would tottle over and wanna know like, what's the deal? How are you out here? How is it possible that you're here? Right? And they would want to know, What did you do? And I decided I was not going to answer that question. I was going to instead ask people what they thought I did. Good question. Again, a really great opportunity to see through others' eyes, different ways. Who else could I be in the world? What is there? Curiously, what I got, I never got lawyer, which I thought was kind of good. It meant I had fully shed my snake skin, right? I often got sculptor, artist, gallery owner. Those came a lot, which was fascinating to me because at the time I wouldn't have said that I had a creative impulse. But one of the things that I did on the road during that time is I would. Go to Pancake Supper at the firehouse or the local Chamber of Commerce meeting or somewhere where I could meet people and whoever had the most interesting job, I would say, Hey Robin, can I come to work with you for a week? You don't have to pay me and I will do anything you need done. I just wanna see what it's like to be you. And the very first time I did that, I've been, I was in Southern California, and campgrounds, as you know, are not generally in the center of a metropolitan area, so, you know, a little more more rural. And I'm running with my dogs one morning and on the right side of the road was a chicken farm. On the left side of the road was a dairy farm. And I thought, I don't really know anything about farming. So I tied the dogs up to a post, found the farmer. Said, Hey, I don't know anything about farming, but I'd like to, if I promised to come every day for a week, you don't have to pay me and I will do whatever you need done. Are you game? And he kinda stroked his chin looked me up and down. He was like, yep, wear boots. And so every day for a week, I showed up on the farm. The first day he had me bottle feed, newborn calves. Oh, I was coming back the next day, day two, he had me work the milking machine. Day three, I did bookkeeping. Day four, I drove a big tractor full of manure, which I thought being a lawyer had fully prepared me for that skillset, And by the end of the week, I realized, oh my gosh, look at all that is involved just in this little stage of us getting milk. And I was hooked. And so one week out of every month for several years, I did a job I hope to never do again, and it makes me grateful. Oh my God. Other people do their work.

Robin: 45:09

What? What a profound aha moment. One week a year, I decide to do a job that I'll never want to do again. I just love that, what deep curiosity that is,

Denise: 45:23

and also the ability to see other people.

Robin: 45:27

Deep empathy,

Denise: 45:28

deep, deep, deep empathy, right? That willingness. I think one of my fun ones was convincing a lobster boat, a lobster fisherman in Nova Scotia to let me come along on the boat with him, all right? That took me almost two weeks to convince him that I could do that, and I think lobster should cost$300 a pound. Robin That is the most difficult work ever.

Robin: 45:55

There's so many things you. Probably took away from this. Can you like list one or two of the top things you think you took away from challenging yourself with? That

Denise: 46:07

every job matters. Ah, that's great. And somehow we as a culture have decided which jobs are valuable and which jobs are worthless. And here I was coming from a life where I was paid just to use my brain and I was paid substantially more than the people who were doing the things that actually made our lives run. Right. One of the things it really did for me is as I look around, and this happens for me all the time, I'm like, someone made this table and someone harvested the wood that the table is made from and someone milled it and someone got it to the store. And someone marked it and brought it to my house. Look at how many people were involved in the simple production of a table. Something that I need to be able to be having this interview with you right now, all around me, every day. That is the way I be. I was able to begin seeing that's deep awareness and instead of imagining that, oh, what I do matters more than what someone else does, every person must do their job and must do it well for our lives to work. So what was

Robin: 47:36

the inspiration to move into being the Seller whisperer?

Denise: 47:40

Hmm. When I came off the road from traveling, I joined a friend's business who was preparing it for sale, and he said, why don't you help us get ready? And over the next 10 years, we tried to sell that business three times and each time the owner got just to the edge and pulled out. And it was because he had not yet been able to give himself permission and he couldn't see what came next for him. Right. On the other side? Side, oh my gosh. So unlike, and I have a, a certain level of curiosity that allowed me to say, I don't know what's next, and go off in an rv. Right. he needed to know what's next before he could let go. And after 10 years of that come to the edge, pull away, I left and did a research study to try to figure out why do business owners get stuck? Why are they me, and wait too long until I was ready to give my business away to be free of it. Or why are they him who come too early and are not able to pull the trigger and let go? And that was the genesis. And over the next, I guess, 13 years now, I have worked one-on-one with business owners and their advisors to help them navigate that emotional obstacle that keeps them stuck because for many of the lawyers and bankers and business brokers and accountants, it is a transaction. But for the business owner, this is the single largest transition in their adult professional life. So from here we go back to the thread and the through. I see it. It's beautiful, isn't it? From here I am actually pulling through all of those threads from the pieces of my own life and doing for others what I needed someone to do for me at a time in my life. But it's also about encouraging and empowering the advisors for these business owners. So we come back to my, you have permission to care. You have permission to care about this person who is going through such a significant transition in their life. And when we show up in that way of caring for them as a person undergoing transition, instead of as a transaction, I'm processing. They are they're changed. Both the advisor and the owner,

Robin: 50:23

Denise, are times coming up. But I wanna cover so much more. What are maybe one or two things that people can start doing to give themselves permission to a, start that conversation with themselves, at least, of gaining courage to explore what's

Denise: 50:41

next? Hmm. I'll put it in the context of work. Work provides so much more for us than just money and financial security. So an exercise that I often do with owners is I ask them, what does work provide for you other than money and financial security question, make a list of 15 things, what 15 things does work provide for you? And if you and I were just to brainstorm a little Robin, what does work provide for you other than money and financial security?

Robin: 51:22

My work now doesn't do any of that.

Denise: 51:23

right. But it's work. Yeah. Oh yeah. And our place in the world, right? If we go back to this we are asked this ridiculous question all day. What do you do? What do you do? What do you do? What does it matter how we earn our money in the world? That question is actually a social pegging question. Mm-hmm. It is designed, the asker is listening for the answer to determine, am I above you or am I below you? Should I be kissing up to you right now, or should you be kissing up to me? And if your listeners think that's not true, I'm gonna challenge you for the next week. Answer that question with something that you believe is beneath you. Hmm. And notice how you feel about someone's response to that. So going back to the checklist, what 15 things does work provide? Things like structure, a place to go, intellectual stimulation, friendship, power, and we each have our own list. Those needs that are getting met by our work do not go away. When we suddenly get a big sack of cash or we retire, those needs continue to carry forward with us. So where will you get your sense of intellectual stimulation outside of work? Where will you get the thrill of the chase? Or the thrill of the hunt, whatever that is for someone, where will you get your sense of power? And then start mapping out what are all the other ways that you could get those needs met other than in your work and begin getting them met that way so that when it is time to transition from our work to what's next, you're going to something not from something. Oh,

Robin: 53:25

it's so poetic. Really good. That was really good. Denise, you've done amazing things throughout your life that have forged you into who you are. What's another one that you think really made a critical impact on who you are

Denise: 53:38

today? Oh my goodness. I was teaching a weekend workshop on an island with a group of 300 women, and okay, I gotta

Robin: 53:50

stop and get what inspired that

Denise: 53:54

You know, I was invited to come and talk about the, the journey and about transition. Okay. And so I have what I call the sanitized version of my exit, and then there is the unsanitized version, which is super ugly and super choppy. Things like, you know, I shared a little bit about thinking maybe I would flip my car. Right to get out. It gets even more choppy and ugly. And so I'm on stage with this, this audience, and for the very first time ever, I decide I'm going to tell the unsanitized version of my exit. So I let it all out and then I thought, oh, it's probably a good time for a break right now. So I go into the lady's room and I splash some water on my face and I think, wow, okay. I've just told all the ugly that happened and I come back on stage. And that's what I said, you know, that's the very first time I've ever told the unsanitized version of how ugly my exit was that I took no money off the table. Practically gave the business away so that I could be free. Eventually, I ended up filing bankruptcy and losing my house at foreclosure and then wandering off in my motor home. So your listeners just got like the shorter version of the unsanitized, right? It's, oh, I exited my business, but then there is all of the heartache that went with it. And so I say, and I wonder how that landed for you as an audience, because this is the first time I've told this publicly, and this woman from the back of the room stands up, puts her hand on her hip and says, well, here, I thought you were a success, and now I find out that you're a fraud. You're not a success. You're actually a loser. And she. Unloaded, and for those of you who are watching the video, you can see Robin's face eyes wide. That was pretty much me sweating through my blouse on stage, and she unloaded. And when she finished I said, wow, thank you for saying that because you just said every single thing I have ever been afraid that someone would say to me and a few I hadn't yet thought of. So thanks for preempting those nightmares that I might have in the weeks after our experience. But my primary question to you, ma'am, is what in your life are you unwilling to do? Because you are afraid someone will say to you a version of what you just said to me. She turned on her heel and stormed out the back of the ballroom. And then one third of the audience got up and left with her and I was thinking, well, this went badly. And then I remembered two thirds of my audience is still in their seats. I abandoned the rest of my notes for this weekend retreat, and I dropped down super deeply with the audience that remained. And we dropped into what are the things that we are unwilling to do because we are afraid of other people's judgments, of other people's thoughts of what people will say and how we keep ourselves stuck in a life that is not actually our life. Because we are worried about what we just saw happen. It was the deepest, richest, most amazing experience, both for me as the facilitator and also for the women who were in this event. Of course, I was stuck on an island for the rear remainder of the weekend with one third of my audience who had departed. But when we took the ferry back to the mainland at the end of the weekend, there were even some of the women who had departed who approached me, and it actually was the moment where I stopped being worried about saying what was true.

Robin: 58:41

That is beautiful What a great empowering moment you gave yourself and you gave all them.

Denise: 58:52

We spend so much of our life being. In hiding. And what really allows us to come forward and build connection with others is when we're real. When we put something right, when we put something that we are so terrified. What if you knew this about me? Mm-hmm. And so even as I'm working with business owners, when they're in the period of transition, often they're worried. What will someone say? What if I left money on the table? What if they know I have cancer? What if all of those things that business owners try to hide in the process of their sale, which actually makes them so much more vulnerable in a bad. When you are hiding. Other people can sense that that could be a whole other conversation for us about the amygdala and how our brain senses and all of those pieces. But what, what I know is being okay with who I am and what has made me who I am is what allows me to step in closer and create safety and trust with others.

Robin: 1:00:16

No doubt. And the first thing that popped in my mind when you started saying that woman's reaction in the back,

1:00:22

pain,

Denise: 1:00:23

right? She's in pain. And that is the exact question I asked her, which is, what are you not doing? Yeah. I mean, it definitely felt painful for me to be in that place and that I'm sure my face looked shocked, and I know I was sweating through my blouse because I had been vulnerable. And then instead of getting affirmation, Got assault, and that happens. But from that place forward, I was never worried again. Yeah, I bet. What would happen? What if I told my truth and I still, at times in my life, I choose whether to share the sanitized version of my exit or the full version of my exit. I decide who and where. That makes sense to share. Yeah. As opposed to needing to just blurt it out in an unintegrated way, but that's a choice as opposed to coming from a place of fear and shame.

Robin: 1:01:29

Thank you for being fearless.

Denise: 1:01:31

You're welcome.

Robin: 1:01:34

Denise, what's something I didn't ask you that I should have asked you that you wanted to make sure that you shared with everyone before we leave?

Denise: 1:01:40

Hmm. I might just give a little quick chat about the book that I wrote. I'd love to hear about it. The book is called The Seller's Journey, and it's written as a business fable. It's the story of an owner. One year after he exits his business, he goes on a trip across Glacier National Park with his banker, his lawyer, his financial advisor, and the person who bought his firm. And right now your listeners are thinking, this is a murder mystery No one dies. No one kills the lawyer on the trip, even if you're thinking that. But as they cross the glacier, they are on a trip of trust and they are relating the physical obstacles they're facing to the emotional obstacles that they faced in transacting and the transition. And what would it be like? To be on the other side of your transition and realize that you have built such a trusting relationship with the advisors along the way that you would be willing to take that kind of a trip. And I think that is the distinction. When we choose who takes the journey with us along many parts of our life, can we choose those people who were able to drop down more deeply with step into that place of trust? And on the journey, I won't spoil it for you, but on the journey there is, there are many instances where they have to come back to, do I trust you or do I not trust you? And they need to repair those breaches and trust that happen in every relationship that we ever have with someone. So that book is it was a true pleasure. To write and it's love it. It's my little heart child out in the world. It's your own personal seller's journey. Yeah. It's your personal Mona Lisa. Yeah, it was Beauti. It was so fun to write and I think in many ways gives permission to advisors to show up in that way. Mm-hmm. and gives owners permission to choose those who they are willing to invest their trust in. Because technical prowess is the minimum that we expect from the advisors who we choose. Mm-hmm. it is so much more.

Robin: 1:04:11

No doubt. Denise, where can people go to bring you into their lives more?

Denise: 1:04:16

Oh, so fun. Thanks for asking. My website is deniselogan.com. I write a regular column there. I'm on LinkedIn and Twitter and happy, happy to have folks reach out to have a conversation or just to drop a note. I'm always happy to hear from people.

Robin: 1:04:36

Awesome. Denise, I want to thank you for walking the hard road so that others don't have to. Hmm. You're a, a treasure and a gift and a, an amazing, fun conversation and we're gonna have to have you on again. Denise, thanks again very much for coming

Denise: 1:04:51

on. That's it. It was so my pleasure. Thanks Aton, Robin. Thank you.

Robin: 1:04:56

Thank you for tuning into another episode of Forged By Trust. Remember, if you want to forge trust? It's not how you make people feel about you that matters. It's how you make them feel about themselves. If you are interested in more information about how it can help you forge your own trust, building, communication, and interpersonal strategies for you or your organization, please reach out to me at my website, www.peopleformula.com. I'm looking forward to sharing my next Forged by Trust episode with you next week when we. TEDx speaker and entrepreneur, Hal Halladay, and seeing the light in others.