Disciplined Listening w/ Michael Reddington

 🌟 Disciplined Listening

🤔  Masterful Interviewing Skills Requires Deep Curiosity and Empathy. But, to Make the Impact you Seek, you Must Forge Deep Connections. Therefore, check out this Insightful Episode with Certified Forensic Interviewer Michael Reddington, and Enhance Your Skills with his Disciplined Listening Method.  

🌟 What We Discuss with Michael:

👉 ⁃       Looking out for the Underdog

👉 ⁃       Making Deep Connections

👉 ⁃       Getting LOTS of Confessions

👉 ⁃       Disciplined Listening and Uncovering Hidden Value

 
🌟 About Michael:

Michael Reddington is a Certified Forensic Interviewer, executive resource, President of InQuasive, Inc. and the author of The Disciplined Listening Method. As a Certified Forensic Interviewer, he achieved the highest professional designation available in the field of interview and interrogation. Michael spent over a decade training investigators around the world on the successful application of non-confrontational interview and interrogation techniques, earning the Outstanding Contribution Award from Homeland Security along the way. Michael transitioned from educating investigators to educating executives after his research and experience unlocked two key realizations. First, the very best leaders and the very best interrogators capitalize on the same two core skills - vision and influence. Second, the cognitive processes that lead customers to commit to saying, "I'll buy it", employees to commit to saying "I'll do it" and suspects to commit to truthfully saying "I did it" are all nearly identical. 

🙏  Thanks, Michael! Reach out, connect, and follow Michael across all his social platforms:

👉 -       https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelreddingtoncfi/

👉 -       https://twitter.com/mreddingtoncfi

🌟 Resources mentioned in the podcast:

👉 -       https://inquasive.com/

👉 -       https://michaelreddington.com/

👉 -       https://disciplinedlistening.com/

Pre-Order my Latest Book: "Unbreakable Alliances: A Spy Recruiters Authoritative Guide to Cultivating Powerful & Lasting Connections" HERE

Unlocking the Power of Trust: Keynote Speaker Robin Dreeke Shares Secrets to Creating Allies - Robin is the former Chief of the FBI's Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program. With over 30 years of experience in recruiting spies and building trust, Robin is the world-renowned speaker you need. Don't miss out on the opportunity to learn from a true expert. Contact us now to book your event! Click HERE to book a time to chat.

🤔 Take Robin's FREE YouTube Keys to Communication Online Course HERE.

😃 Check out Robin's Speaking, and Training Services HERE.

Transcript

Robin: 0:04

Looking out for the underdog allows us to make deep connections and gets us lots of confessions. Hey, welcome to the Forged by Trust podcast. I'm your host, Robin Dreek, professional speaker, executive coach, former US Marine spy recruiter, bestselling author, and your trust and communication expert. Today's episode, discipline Listening is all about Michael Reddington and his amazing insights, as well as book the Discipline Listening Method, a deep dive into how certified forensic interviewers can unlock hidden value in every conversation. The book represents a thoroughly research and illustrated approach for enhancing strategic observation and persuasive communication skillsets. In life. Michael goes well beyond facilitating and advising. He applies customized content, specifically designed to meet the needs of each participant with a humorous and intelligent delivery style. His diligent preparation attention to each participant's concerns and added context coalesced to drive home the learning objectives with Michael. It's never a presentation seminar, or advisory session. It's always an experience. Coming up next on the Forged By Trust podcast.

Michael: 1:06

But once I got into the conversation, I was fascinated that there are literally ways that we can connect with other human beings to cause them to choose to share sensitive information under vulnerable circumstances in the face of consequences on a regular basis. And that is what fascinated me.

Robin: 1:51

Today's episode, discipline Listening is with my good friend, the truly disciplined listener, Michael Reddington. Michael Reddington is a certified forensic interviewer, executive resource president of Qua Inc. And the author of the Discipline Listening Method. As a certified forensic interviewer, he achieved the highest professional designation available in the field of interview and interrogation. Michael spent over a decade training investigators around the world on the successful application of non-confrontational interview and interrogation techniques, earning the outstanding Contributional Award from Homeland Security along the way. Michael transitioned from educating investigators to educating executives after his research and experience unlocked two key realizations. First, the very best leaders and the very best interrogators capitalized on the same two core principles, vision and influence. Second, the cognitive processes that lead customers to commit to saying, I'll buy it. Employees to commit to saying I'll do it, and suspects to commit to truthfully saying I did it, are all nearly identical During the episode today, we talk about looking out for the underdog, making deep connections, getting lots of confessions and discipline, listening and uncovering hidden. Michael, how are you? And welcome to

Michael: 3:07

the show. I'm doing great, Robin. Thank you very much for having me here today. I really appreciate it.

Robin: 3:13

The pleasure and honors all mine, especially when we were chatting the other day and you came up with the title of this episode, which is really your passion for life, and that is disciplined listening. Oh my gosh. Who in the world doesn't need a greater set of disciplined listening in their lives, as well as the gift that you give to others by having that. So Michael, Just starting off this entire journey together for this episode, I'm curious. You are an accomplished interviewer. You're an accomplished deep listener and disciplined listener, and this great fascination with overall human behavior. What was a spark early on in life that gave you this desire and passion to do that?

Michael: 3:55

I appreciate you asking. That's a, a great question and I'll try to find a linear answer for you. That's one that could probably take me in a, in a lot of different

Robin: 4:03

take us on any journey you want with it, because that's part of the joy of it.

Michael: 4:08

I appreciate that. I think for me, you know, if I was to go all the way back to being a kid and just thinking. How I was learning to struggle to relate to the world and trying to figure out what people were thinking and what they were doing and, and some of those things

Robin: 4:23

I'm going already go struggle to relate to the world. Yeah. What was that

Michael: 4:28

struggle? Yeah, I don't think, I mean, I think probably just like a lot of kids, I was, I was always awkward, like just trying to figure out how to fit in, what to say, what not to say, what to do, what not to do. And I don't know, I don't wanna make it sound like I had this arduous journey in life. Right. I'm, I'm very, very fortunate to have had the opportunities that I've had. But I think for me, really that, that. I had a, an extra large struggle. I, I think, comparatively speaking, maybe, maybe not. But really as a kid trying to figure out where I belonged, what I was gonna do, how to gain acceptance, those kinds of things.

Robin: 5:01

How was that showing up for you back then? Like what was going on?

Michael: 5:03

You know, I think for me, well there, there were a few extra detention sessions that were probably a result of that. But I would say it probably showed up to me in one or two ways, generally speaking either too much effort or not enough effort at all. So either trying too hard or just kind of going back into my own shell. And in a way, I think going back into my own shell, Is really where a lot of the listening and observations started because when I wasn't so much worried about talking or doing, it was really, I shouldn't say easy, but I had whatever brain matter I had available at that age, I had to be able to focus on what were people saying and doing around me, and start building, you know, patterns and expectations and, and start to understand and, and really take note of how are people acting in different situations. What

Robin: 5:52

kind of behaviors do you think you were doing back then that was kind of landing you in some deep water? Oh, running

Michael: 5:57

my mouth

Robin: 6:00

doing the Ryan Reynolds.

Michael: 6:03

Yeah, I mean, running my mouth for sure was part of it. Bit of a short And where'd you grow up? Well, I grew up in New Hampshire.

Robin: 6:10

Okay. And what was that school? So was this a public

Michael: 6:13

school that you're in up there? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, just. Probably, like I said, I don't wanna make it sound like I was experiencing things that made my life any special or, or different than anybody else's. I don't, I don't wanna say that at all or lead to that impression. I just think we all kind of experience the world in our own ways. Right? And one of the things that fascinates me, and I'm not a neuroscientist by any stretch, is how. We all have so much in common, like the universality of the human experience is so deep, but yet at the same time, our brains are all wired so very differently. And based on how they're wired, we all just kind of interact and experience things differently at different times, in different places, in different ways. So that, I mean, for me, Yeah, I mean, if you were gonna ask how that behavior, you know, manifested itself, either in complete quietness or the polar opposite of complete quietness, which would be running my mouth and saying any number of things at, at the wrong time.

Robin: 7:11

So back then, did you have any sense yet of what it is you wanted to pursue in life and do?

Michael: 7:17

No, none. I re, I mean, I remember being, It's weird, the memories that we have. The first memory I have of like wanting to do something, I remember sitting underneath my porch with a cordless phone calling construction companies as a little kid because I really like construction trucks and wanting to work uhhuh in construction, But I think the f first real sense I got of what I wanted to do once I realized that playing center field for the Boston Red Sox was probably out of the equation, was working with special needs children. And I did that. So I, I went to school. At first I was affiliated, well, affiliated is kind of a loose term. I went to a school where the children who in we're talking early nineties at this point. So prior to that, children with particular learning needs might have been in a different school or different classrooms. Where I was at that time was a bit unique where those students were in our regular classrooms with us and. For me, I had the opportunity to try to help and support them in the classroom and then through some of their aids and teachers became affiliated with the Institute on Disability at the University of New Hampshire. And that was really when I had the opportunity to start getting involved in learning more about those education experiences. And so for me, I thought I was always gonna be a special education teacher and baseball coach. And I did it for a little while before finding myself on this meandering. What

Robin: 8:42

I mean, that's, that's really remarkable to be into that special needs speciality at such young age. What, what was a spark for that?

Michael: 8:53

Honestly, probably a little bit of the conversation we touched on before. I, I'm extremely fortunate to have the mother and father that I have. And I think that, well, I don't think I know that my parents raised us to do the right thing to take care of people that needed help. Certainly, and this is probably common for anybody from New England being brought up with an underdog mentality and always being caring and looking out for those, or cheering for those in an underdog role. And I think for me, Kind of the, the perspective I had just growing up that when I encountered that situation, it, it was the right time and place for me that it just, it made sense and it felt like the right thing to do. Do

Robin: 9:30

you remember what your parents were doing to model that behavior

Michael: 9:32

for you? I woulds, I don't remember necessarily anything consi, anything specific, but I remember consistency, if that makes sense. Yeah, sure. So I, I don't necessarily remember like an aha moment, but it was, whether it was, you know, holding doors or helping people carry things or, and my dad was a youth sports coach, not always there. He didn't want us to be kids. So some years he coached us. Some years he didn't. But, you know, kind of model watching him, how he did that. So there were, I think there were consistent, literally almost day-to-day examples from both of them. My mother was a school teacher as well. So there was lots of examples there, but I don't necessarily recall one big one. So if I'm shortening your mom and dad, I apologize.

Robin: 10:14

No, it's, they're demonstrating great reps of life skills, of just, this is how we live. And it became imbued in you at such a young age. So here we are, we're in high school. We think we're gonna be a baseball coach and a and a special needs teacher. What's next?

Michael: 10:31

So I ended up doing both for a short time and then it was the nineties as I referenced before, a decade that some of us may or may not remember fondly depending on what we were listening to and what we were wearing at the time. But I had some friends that were making a lot of money in the, well for a young kid. Were making a lot of money in the financial industry. So they talked me into trying that where I lasted two years, one month and two days cuz it wasn't for me. So at this point, I don't know what I'm gonna do. I, I, I know I'm not going back to that, but I don't know what I'm gonna do. So I went back to school to get my business degree, be my literal thought was if I get a business degree that leaves as many doors open as possible. So I needed, I, I was that kid that I would leave the house at six in the morning with all three meals and a cooler, and I'd get home somewhere around one, two in the morning and do it again. So my first job during that time, I was loading. That's a lot of. Yeah, I was loading freight on airplanes at Manchester Airport in the winter at night, which was lots of fun. What else was I doing? I drove delivery trucks. I worked at bars worked on loading docks, did all kinds of stuff, but then one night over a Guinness. And I do feel like many of the greatest decisions ever have been made after the right amount of Guinness. Not the wrong amount of Guinness. Great. But he asked me if I still needed to work and I said, yeah, and, and he had a job in the security field and in the private sector and said, why don't you come work with me? And I said, sure. And that literal part-time job to help pay the bills is eventually. Manifested itself to become what I do now. So it really has been a series of fortuitous events slash happy accidents. I think that have have led to where I am.

Robin: 12:04

So let's go back because I think it's, it's interesting to figure out. Who was that kind of reached in and, and gave us that boost when we needed it emotionally, psychologically. Was there any one or group or besides your parents that kind of came in and said, Hey, we need to do things a little bit differently.

Michael: 12:26

No I mean, I, well, not when I was young. I mean, my parents really, really were the driving force. So I give them 100% of the credit. You know, by the time I got into high school, Or about graduating high school? You know, several of the people I worked with, like at the institute worked like I wasn't on payroll, but, you know, worked with supporting some of the kids. I would say that they started to have an impact on me. And what were you and

Robin: 12:50

what were you learning with these kids? That's, I mean, that, that to me is really intriguing, fascinating, and humbling that someone at that age would do that. Volunt.

Michael: 13:01

Yeah, I mean, and I wasn't the only one. But I mean, I learned a lot. You know, there's always, people are always dealing with their own thing and people are always fighting through their own struggle and people always have their own demons or their own goals or their own, whatever it is. So I, I think for me, I was learning perspective really these. Young. The, the, the two that I were with were both boys. So, you know, kids my age that are coming to school every day like everybody else, and, you know, they're, they're working through things the best way that they can with the limited assets or resources that they had to do it. And the, there's a lot, there's a lot to be said for that and for me to have the perspective of, you know, there, there situations can always be different. They can always be different. And then, You know, when I first started working in that field, same thing. So I was that age, so literally in my late teens, early twenties, that's when my summer jobs were. We're working with kids and adults that were experiencing those things. And everything from, you know, children who are born with some of these things that we hear about all the time that unfortunately a little bit more common all the way up to adults that either were born normal and experienced tragic accidents that significantly limited their cognitive resources after or were born. With physical and mental limitations, but lived in a time where it was okay for them to be put in a house and live in a house. And if, unfortunately, for one guy, unfortunately is the greatest understatement in the history of time, by the way. But when he would get mad because he couldn't talk, he would bite. So one day in the, when the facility, now this happened years before I met him. But when the facility had enough of that, they told him he was going to the dentist. And when he woke up, he had no teeth. And that's how they solved the biting problem. Oh my God. So, and I met him probably a decade after that happened to him, if not more. And that the facility where that happened was closed down by the time that I had met him. So I, I dunno, I think for me, per perspective, number one respect for what other people go through. Number two you know, the struggle that people have. So you know, the list goes on and on. And I don't mean to sound trite or like pick the top five terms you would get from somebody from a harder circumstance than you. But those, those really are the biggest ones. And you know, for me, when I got into investigative roles and to your point from earlier, had to start interviewing people, I really think for me, all of those experiences that I had, you know, I wasn't a kid that grew up a CJ major wanting to have to pass a polygraph someday. So I've gotta, you know, just stay focused on this, you know, from all the people that I worked with, you. Coworkers that I worked with at different jobs to friends that I had along the way to working with people that were in some of these situations when I was younger, really provided a depth of perspective again for the human experience that, as I'm sure in your work, you know, much better than me, allowed me to connect with people in a way that allowed them to share information and experiences that they might normally not share deep.

Robin: 16:02

You learned deep empathy at a young age. Sure. Wow, that's amazing. So you get into the security job and what was the security job

Michael: 16:10

doing? My first one was the glorified work of catching shoplifters. All right. Yeah, man. At Sears, you know, may Sears resting. Oh yeah. I feel like that's an another American institution gone by. But yeah, so it was my buddy and I, you know, started up just catching shoplifters, which was fun. And then what made it. Honestly, the, the two things. Number one, the observation piece, like being able to pick somebody out and again, you know, from all the work you've done around the world catching shoplifters. I get it. But just,

Robin: 16:39

no, I'm curious. I never caught shoplifters. That's why. I mean, what was that skillset you were developing in there, you think?

Michael: 16:45

Number one, observation. For sure. Observation, picking up on sometimes subtle, sometimes not so subtle indications that people's stated intentions were not their actual intentions. And then being able to, you know, follow them around and not be seen. And some of these things, and again, we're talking about catching shoplifters, right? I'm not talking about following somebody through the streets of a foreign country off subways and whatnot.

Robin: 17:09

Don't undersell yourself, I think, I think those are remarkable experiences you're

Michael: 17:13

having. But that was fun. And being able to work with a great friend obviously made it more fun, the camaraderie of it. So that was fun and being, and honestly, and again, small potatoes here, but taking strategic approaches to it. So an anticipating where somebody is going, when they're gonna get there, how to get there first. How do you start approaching somebody in a way that reduces the opportunity for conflict, especially when I'm not really allowed to respond to conflict. Right. And. I don't have anybody else with me or I don't necessarily have anything other than what's in between here to keep myself safe. So yeah, I mean those were, those were all fun aspects of that job. But again, you know, certainly understanding where you come from and some of the places you've been and people you've worked

Robin: 17:52

in. So what were some of the, the aha moments you had in that job that you learned about yourself?

Michael: 17:57

That's another really good question. Over time. Cause I think like with any role repetition is important. Yeah. So if you do something for a while, you get more comfortable with it. If you don't do it for a while, you still have those same skills, but you might not be as comfortable with it in the moment, those kinds of things. But building the confidence to be able to make decisions and juggle multiple variables under potentially stress. Times. So again, my definition of stress in this situation could be quite different than somebody else's definition of stress in the room. That's fantastic. But if I've gotten multiple people spread out through a store and I'm talking on the radio to three people on my team, and I'm trying to coordinate what's going on, where is everybody, how do we converge? When do we converge? By the way, are there more people outside that we have to be aware of and how are we gonna handle that? So being able to. Stay focused and keep everybody else common focused in those scenarios was probably top of the list.

Robin: 18:54

What do you think people were seeing in you at that point in time in your life?

Michael: 18:57

I would. I guess from the people who were in charge of my career at that point, I think they saw somebody who was, for lack of a better term, a charger or go-getter, somebody who was taking opportunities and making the most of them from my peers. Hopefully they were seeing somebody who genuinely cared about them. Once I earned several management roles down the road from where this story starts, I, I would go home and, and I, I did it forever, but it didn't get called to my attention. I was going home one night and two of my associates were there to close after I left. And so the, I said to them, the last thing I said every night I turned around and I said, take care of each other. If you need anything, call me. And when I left one night, Al looks at me and he starts laughing. He is like, man, you realize you say that every night. I was like, yeah, I say that every night. I mean it like, take care of each other. You two are the only two here tonight. You, I mean, that's all I care about. And so hopefully for the people that worked with me, they got a real sense and a taste for that. And it would be interesting to know what the people who didn't work with me felt like. I remember being on a group excursion in New York. And I was with every, actually I was the only one from my discipline, so everybody else I was with was from sales or operations, and we were crossing the street. And as we were about to cross the street, I just, I didn't step out into the middle of the road. I'm not a moron, but I took one step off the edge of the sidewalk just to turn and look. And then I stood there in order to make sure the women got to go first and they were okay, and like, just like polite things that I was taught to do when I was raised. And when we got to the other side of the street, I, I remember Heather looking at me and saying like, you just can't turn it off, can you? I'm like, turn one off. I was being a nice guy, so it'd be kind of interesting to see what, what some people thought. But hopefully, you know, from a peer standpoint, my team really believed that my number one concern was taking care of them and up the food chain. They saw the work I was putting in. What

Robin: 20:53

would the shoplifters say about.

Michael: 20:57

I wonder if they would even remember me, to be honest.

Robin: 20:59

They might, I'd be, I'd be curious, like what were some of those engagements? Like, how did you treat them?

Michael: 21:05

The o the vast majority of them quite well. There were a few that didn't go the same way. But the, the vast majority of them quite well is, you'll be surprised. Well, you probably won't be surprised, but many people will be surprised what people will say and do for you when you're actually nice to. So for me it was, and what we tried to instill in our team was taking a physical approach that would at least cause enough of a hesitation in someone that would allow them to listen to you. And that physical approach doesn't necessarily mean running up on them. Like it could be an angle of pursuit. Like if I know they're gonna turn to the left and when they turn to the left, I'm there. That causes them to hesitate for a second. Now they're listening like, so just little things. But what did you want them to listen? I wanted them to hear my voice. I wanted them to hear my tone of voice, and I wanted them to understand that if we could all just be cool for the next 25 minutes, 90% of the time we're all going our own separate way after. So that was, that was really it. I just want, I wanted them to mirror my calmness in order for us to just go back, get this handled and get on with it. What did you learn

Robin: 22:09

about some of your people that you stopped that were shoplift.

Michael: 22:13

The gamut. Some of them were absolute criminals. No doubt about it. But I'd hesitate to say that wasn't the majority. I don't even have to hesitate. That wasn't the majority. There were families that didn't have anything that were looking to take things for their family. There were people who felt pressured by somebody else. There was an area I worked in between a couple large cities and it was not uncommon for us to. Catch somebody and have them say, literally show us a list and say that somebody from their neighborhood said that they had to come get all this stuff, or their little brother or their little sister was gonna be in physical jeopardy back where they lived. So I think for me, getting back to, and I say it over and over again, the universality of the human experience, it's very easy for someone to watch TV at night and say, that person's a criminal. That person's a scumbag. That person is whatever. And statistically, That might be true, but there is often so much more to the story that until you actually are in some of those situations and talk to some of those people and understand the dynamics, do you understand what really happened? And there were some people who literally just made an impulsive decision like you. Or I might walk through a Packer store and or pack a walk through a store and say, screw it, I'll get that pack of gum without ball of Coke. Like, I didn't think about it. I'll just do it. Sometimes people are. Walking around and making an impulsive decision to do something that society doesn't support as much, but that doesn't necessarily make them a bad person. What a,

Robin: 23:40

what a great learning experience that was. So what's next

Michael: 23:45

after that is when I was really introduced to interview and interrogation, or really during that same time, it overlapped.

Robin: 23:50

Oh yeah, you were, you were already introduced to it. You were doing some mad skill level stuff right there. That was really impressive. Keep going.

Michael: 23:57

Well, thank you. So I inadvertently caught someone stealing one night. And it's, honestly, I'm not, I didn't so much catch somebody stealing. I had a really, really, really terrible thief walk past me. Let's be honest about that. So I called my boss after. I mean, I, I did a little investigation, wanted to make sure I wasn't making things up. Call my boss at the time, who, to this day, still a good friend of mine. And again, how old were you at this time?

Robin: 24:23

I was in my early twenties. That's crazy. That's amazing. Keep going.

Michael: 24:27

So I called my boss. I'd never interviewed anybody before. I'd only known what most people know, which is, you know, you see it on TV and you know as well as I do, how accurate that is compared to you

Robin: 24:37

were interviewing people your entire life. Yeah,

Michael: 24:40

true.

Robin: 24:41

Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean, that's all you've been doing. I'm sorry. Keep

Michael: 24:45

going. This is No, you're fine. You're fine. So I said, Hey listen, here's what I got. He said, I think you're right. I think you got somebody stealing. I said, yeah. He said, you think you can get'em to. Now, there's only one right answer to that question. I have to say. Yes. My intention is I'm gonna say yes, and then he's gonna tell me what to do instead, and I still give him a hard time for this. He said, great. Call me back when it's done and hung up the phone. So I fumbled through it and the kid confessed, and you know, I'd rather be lucky than good. And then after a few more investigations was when I was sent to my first training course. And when I got to that course, that is literally the day that the clouds parted and the rainbow came out and the sun shin and the bird sang, and this is what I want to do. So it was. Not planned in any way, shape, or form. But I had a, a few opportunities to do it. Then once I got to see somebody who later became a friend and a teammate teach me how to do it, and, and realized that there are real techniques in, in science and art to this, that's when I just became my son. I have a, a young son. He just learned the word obsessed, so I'm gonna steal a word from him. That's when I became obsessed with it. And, and it really became my focus.

Robin: 25:54

So what do you think it was about it that made you so obsessed with.

Michael: 25:58

It was trying to figure out why the hell people keep admitting. And I, I say that with a tinge of sarcasm, I'm not gonna lie. There were times where hearing somebody say, I did it felt better than others. But that's not what it was about for me when I was living in Connecticut at the time, shortly after I took that training course and I. Three reasonable confessions in a row, all three with limited evidence. One of those, I mean, most, most fraud type crimes and, and I'm sure you're well aware, are pattern crimes. Nobody does'em just once, right? So you find out what you do know, and you use that to get to what you don't know. And all three of them went so well that I'm calling my dad after the third one to tell my dad about it. And my dad's an East Boston kid. Born and raised Vietnam veteran. So I called my dad to tell him, and my dad starts laughing and he says to me, Michael, don't any of these people realize that if nobody talks, everybody walks? And I started laughing. I'm like, let's just keep that to ourselves. We don't need to publicize that, but he's right. And so for me, you think about, or I would think about, I've got somebody who made a series of regrettable decisions. Telling the truth about those regrettable decisions may long-term have positive effects in their life and may have a weight off the shoulder and might be a, a recalibration point for them in any number of ways. But right now, in this moment, talking about it is a bad idea. I don't care how you slice it. But yet time after time, after time, after time, after time, after time, they did. And that's the part that fascinated me. The investigation piece, I'm sure you hear this with a lot of investigators, was fun like pulling the strings and learning as much as I could and seeing where trails took me before I got into the conversation. But once I got into the conversation, I was fascinated that there are literally ways that we can connect with other human beings to cause them to choose to share sensitive information under vulnerable circumstances in the face of consequences on a regular basis. And that is what fascinated me.

Robin: 28:08

So before you even had any training, you're getting deep confessions. What were you doing that inspired them to want to share that with.

Michael: 28:18

Treating them with rapport and helping them save face. That's literally it. I'll give a shout out to the technique I was using in just a second and I'd like to hear your thoughts on it at some point. But I truly, truly believe in my bones that at a minimum, and this is a conservative minimum, 85% of the battle is helping people save face. If you want someone to say or do something that they don't want to do, 85% of the battle at a minimum is helping them save face. And if you can help'em save face, you're like, at that point, you're just putting the finishing touches on the conversation after that. So talk about what we were doing. Literally, and you know all of this, but from how we positioned ourselves to our tone of voice, to our speed of delivery, to our word choices, to never opening up a conversation with an accusation and actually walking through with a sometimes 10 to 15 minute monologue, I should be honest, it's probably times it was over 20, which was a big mistake on my part. It should be 10 to 15 tops. But with that short monologue that allows them to think, oh, wait a minute. I probably am caught. I'm not exactly sure what they caught me for. That sounds like they might have caught me, but I can say face if I tell'em I did it for this reason. So let's just start there and then we can work. So really the whole package, honestly, and I even learned. From the time and location of the conversation to how we have the conversation, and I used to hear stories about people like marching people to the interview room, like going to get them in perp, walking them across the building before you interviewed them. And I'm like, Why on earth would that be helpful? Like I could get it if there was a physical situation, like you had to keep somebody safe, go get'em, escort'em to keep'em safe or people around that person safe. Yeah, that makes sense. But for your average run-of-the-mill fraud interview, you're gonna perp walk someone before the conversation. Like walk me through how that helps. So I think just again, going back to all the experiences we talked about before, understanding. Certainly on a subconscious level probably cuz I didn't start learning this in detail till later. How people need to be treated in order to be vulnerable. Yeah, it's, it's

Robin: 30:24

interesting listening to What do you, how do you think shame plays into all these motivations that you utilized?

Michael: 30:33

Well, absolutely not a psychiatrist or a psychologist. Whichever one may or may not pertain the most, you're just a mess, practi. It's a double-edged sword. So I think for some people shame can be a motivator. I think for others it is an absolute conversation killer, and especially for the conversations that we were having. I was much better off treating shame as a conversation killer. Than assuming it would help motivate somebody. And one of the analogies that I would use teaching interview and interrogation is I never want their head to go below the water. Hmm. I don't want them metaphorically, I don't want them to actually drown, but for this conversation, I don't want them metaphorically drowning in front of me because if their head gets underwater, especially, the further it gets, the harder it's gonna be for me to pull them up. So even when somebody started going the shame route, I'm so ashamed of myself, I can't believe I let myself do this. I'm so much better than this. Da dah, dah, dah. Illustrating that people make regrettable decisions. It's often not who we are. It's the factors we're experiencing in that time that drive us to say or do the things we say or do. Not trying to absolve anybody of accountability, of course, but I'm a big believer by and large that more often than not, Shaming somebody is a great way to ruin a relationship and cause them to not want to share vulnerable information with you anymore cuz shaming doesn't feel good. But that being said, there are people and there are situations where it can be a motivating factor. So I don't wanna ignore that entirely.

Robin: 32:07

You had a lifetime of understanding people that led up to your mad skills you had at such a young age. So what's next?

Michael: 32:16

So, It was basically in that field for, I don't know, another five, six years, something like that. Wow. And then

Robin: 32:26

and just for a frame of reference, about how many interviews slash interdictions are you doing a day, a week, something like that?

Michael: 32:33

I never kept counts. Certainly can't say a day. I mean, sometimes it might be one or two a day, so you we're, we're talking a handful of week probably so, yeah. And I was fortunate to be in some target rich environments where people were, I guess, more likely or, or had more access to making decisions like that. So, Yeah. I mean, there's certainly people that have conducted more and on a more frequent basis, but I, I managed to kept myself pretty busy. Yeah, no

Robin: 33:02

doubt. All right, so anyway, go ahead. What's next? After five or six years of that,

Michael: 33:06

yeah, my fascination led me to earn my certified forensic interviewer designation. Which at the time was the highest available designation in the field of interview and interrogation? I believe it still is. I know there are certain agencies that offer their own training and civilian training, but for like an overall designation of expertise, so after I took that exam, I was recruited by the company that I'd done a lot of my training with a company called Wick Lands, Olasky and Associates, and they really are the leader in non-confrontational interview and interrogation training and advising. They're based out of suburban Chicago, an amazing team of people over there. And they recruited me. They asked me if I would come work for them. And how old were you then? Around 29. Wow.

Robin: 33:50

It's great skill set. What an amazing skillset set.

Michael: 33:54

What did we learn from. Oh, everything. So I moved out to suburban Chicago, was a 29 year old, didn't know a soul other than the people I was going to work with, and I was just getting to know them and was almost immediately put on airplanes all around the world to travel by myself and train, interview and interrogation techniques to federal agents, law enforcement, military, private sector, hr, how I met my wife. So that would be the most important thing ever. And several great friends that I still have, and then also conduct the investigations on a contract basis. I ran our investigations division, so for me, And anybody, I'm sure, especially with the travels that you've done, being out on your own and having to problem solve every day, all day on your own, when things aren't working the way they're supposed to. There's a million lessons there. But again, it was the education on the human experience because every seminar I ever taught, I'm hearing stories from people, investigations. They've done interviews, they've done stories that they've had, which are. Only adding and helping me. Plus I'm conducting a, a much wide array of investigations, public sector, private sector, all across the country, a few overseas. So just continuing to learn and experience like what other people go through, what drives them to make decisions, what drives them to talk. And just building that. And that's why, I mean, if you're annoyed with it, I'll find another phrase, but I go back to the universality of the human experience. And in that role that. Probably the single most important thing I learned. You know, you want a nicer room at the hotel when you get there and you're overtired late at night, here's how you need to talk to the person at the desk. Mm-hmm. You're sitting at a bar by yourself and some dude won't stop talking to you. Here's how you get a couple free beers before you have to go home. Oh, you've got somebody. Now you have to run an investigation and not only do you need the suspect to talk, But there's witnesses that likely haven't shared information. So now how do you get the witnesses to feel more comfortable opening up before you even go talk to the suspect? And so just time after time trying to learn as much from as many people as possible. So

Robin: 36:07

deep curiosity in the human condition. Yeah. Yeah. Is what drove you. So is that one of your greatest challenges you think of working with people and trying to impart this knowledge on'em?

Michael: 36:16

Believe it or not, I think the saving face is a big aspect of it cuz so many of us weren't raised that way in an operate, in a time constricted environment and it's just a foreign concept. So the saving face is one, not going directly for what you want is another probably both results of the time. Pressed environment, but I would add, I would put yours on the podium. Yes. That curiosity of really trying to get to know what drives somebody, instead of focusing on what do I need to say or do? What does somebody else need to experience in order to create the outcome that is my goal, and how do I create that experience for them? And if you're not studying other people, then you're not gonna be able to do that because you're a hammer and everything looks like. I

Robin: 36:58

think it's hitting that great transition. So what, how do you find out about that great experience that someone needs to inspire them to wanna share with you in interview?

Michael: 37:07

Start just with what's common and you, you hit it before with the shame question. So number one, let me just assume that this person needs an opportunity to save face and protect their self image. Okay? Now let me just kind of backtrack from there into just general life experiences. Why would people make a regrettable decision? Knowing that there's, and I'm not saying they thought of the consequences when they did that, but at least generally aware that there's consequences. Well, assuming they don't fall into some category of medical diagnosis, or they don't feel like the world is entirely given up on them, then there is some sort of external pressure that's been pushing them. So based on what I know about this person or this investigation, we talk all the time about the totality of circumstances in the context of the situation. How do I start working backwards to begin to determine what those likely forces were, and then how do I structure a conversation in a way that allows them to say, you know what, I had this thing going on, and then they blame it on the issue to get the conversation.

Robin: 38:13

It is really remarkable listening to you break this down so succinctly to something that it's, it from your background seems like it's incredibly organic, that you just do this all the time anyway, so it's, it's, I get the sense that you were born doing this because of your upbringing and you learn the science behind it later. That gave you that mastery level with all those years of reps. Is that accurate or no?

Michael: 38:39

Ah, ah, it could be, it could be. You know, you talk about being young and growing up and my dad taking me on the orange line and, you know, pointing people out and teaching situational awareness at a young age and some of those things. What was he pointing out when, when you're doing that? And just people getting on and off the train, like asking questions and, and his dad did it to him when he was a kid, but like when I was learning to drive, and he's asking me, what, what's the third car behind you on your. I don't know, dad, I'm zoning out. Now I gotta go figure out what it is. So just kind of those daily lessons of how important it is to pay attention and understand what's going on around you.

Robin: 39:15

That is a huge nugget. That is huge. He taught you to observe at a young age, to be curiosity. Yeah. To be curious non-judgmentally and observe. Yeah. That's a phenomenal skillset he gave you at that young age that carried through. That's, that's a huge part of why you're really good at what you do. Wow. Tha thanks for sharing that one. So I love the title of the episode, and it requires you to be able to do this in order to be successful in what you're doing and it's discipline listening. What is discipline, listening, and how do you do?

Michael: 39:46

I appreciate you asking. So discipline, listening really is an intentional approach to create the communication experiences that other people need in order to unlock hidden value in any interaction. Because as you know, there's always. It's more underneath the surface. There's always more that people have experienced or could share or aren't sharing. So instead of going into a conversation with narrow expectations or a tactical approach, how do we find ways to elevate our expectations, commit to a more strategic approach in the high impact conversations, in order to communicate with people in a way to get to that value that otherwise seems improbable or unlike. That we'd be able to attain. And there's really two sides to that coin. The first side is the strategic observation side. The second side is that persuasive communication side, and that's, that coin is spending 100% of the time, one side sets the other one in motion.

Robin: 40:43

Wow. So what's the impact of being a disciplined listener on others?

Michael: 40:48

Well, that's where it starts to tie in with the old active listening. I, I just didn't mean to say it that way. That came off a little bit more disdainful than I meant. Active listening is great. For everybody listening, do those things. Active listening essentially equates to attentive listening. And it is true that when you maintain hi culturally appropriate eye contact or situationally appropriate eye contact and body posture, and you mirror what they say and you repeat a little thing, all those things that were essentially taught as active listeners, it's all good. And those things are developed so that way if somebody feels like you're paying attention, they should share more information with you. That's that's true. There's no debating that. I think we're all. Experts at exhibiting active listening, eye contact, open body posture, repeat at least the last word I heard you say, while completely ignoring the person that we're talking to and thinking about how we feel or what we want to say or where else that we would rather be. So really, When we take the discipline listening approach, not only do we find opportunities to create value that likely would've passed others by without them ever realizing it was there, but now we're connecting with somebody to steal the word you used earlier on a deeper level, because we're proving to them that we listened, not just based on how we interact during the conversation, but how we follow. After, especially when we partner with leadership teams and senior leadership teams for our training courses, often we gotta stop and explain the difference between trust and faith. All religious connotations aside, people trust what they have tangible experience with. They have faith in the things they believe in, but they haven't yet seen it or touch. So if you want someone to trust that you've actually listened to them, you've gotta follow up after the conversation. Like there has to be something. You and I talk again two weeks from now, some little random thing that we talked about today. If you were, I bring that back into the conversation. The other one's like, oh, hey, he, he actually listened to me. So providing that, that tangible evidence in order to build on the value we created becomes critical.

Robin: 42:58

Oh yeah. You touched on a few really good things in there that can assist people with becoming a more disciplined listener. Do you have like one or two more nuggets that, Hey, here's, here's something you should start doing today if you really want to be a good disciplined listener that the audience could take away.

Michael: 43:15

Yeah, be patient and allow the conversation to come to you. Listening equals learning, and all too often we get into a conversation with our agenda, what we want to say, what we want to do, and we're completely strapping ourselves from learning what somebody else has to say. So giving people the other opportunity to share. Share in depth, be patient enough, in order to really take in the totality of what they're sharing, and then tie that into those elevated expectations.

Robin: 43:43

I love that. Allow them to be who they are, share what they wanna share, and, and do so without an agenda. That's a real great challenge for people to do, but it brings about amazing results. Anything

Michael: 43:55

else? Well, how much time do we have? One more. I I would throw, I would throw this one out there and this one might be a little bit outta left field. Stop trying to catch people lying. You're only making yourself angry and killing relationships. Just let it get all the myths that we've all been told that people do when they're lying essentially aren't true. And we're assuming that discomfort equals dishonesty. It. But it doesn't necessarily, there's lots of other things. So when you're having a conversation with somebody and they appear to look uncomfortable, and that may or may not be related to dishonesty, number one, don't get mad cuz they'd be lying to anybody else sitting in that chair beside you. It has nothing to do with you. They're trying to protect themselves. And if you can understand what they're afraid of, like if you can get between their ears and assume the consequence to trying to avoid, if we can help reduce their fear of. Honestly, letting somebody lie might be the fastest way to getting the truth as long as you don't shame them or confront them about it. So let go of lies. Focus on observing for comfort and discomfort and helping people save face to get to the information that really makes a difference.

Robin: 44:59

Ah, Poetic Michael ab. That was absolutely poetic. I love that because you just quoted all the greatest minds out there and yours is among them about how to make those deep forging connections between human beings. Michael, what's something I didn't ask you that I should have asked you that you wanted to make sure you shared with everyone before we left?

Michael: 45:19

I came in with no agenda, sir. I appreciate the opportunity and you have really enjoyed the conversation, so I don't, I don't know that there was anything that I wish that you asked. You know, for me, just having the conversation in a way that you feel like your audience is gonna be better off for having listened to us talk for 60 minutes or so is the most important thing.

Robin: 45:36

Beautiful. And where can people go to find out more about you and take advantage of your mad skills they can put into their.

Michael: 45:41

Thank you. The book, the Discipline Listening Method, how a Certified Forensic Interviewer Uncovers Hidden Value in Every Conversation is available online at Amazon in Barnes and Noble, so they can find it at either, if they're looking to learn more about me, they can go to michael reddington.com. If they're looking to learn more about the book, they can go to discipline listening.com, and if they're looking to find more about my company and the services we provide for people, that's at ua.com. I N Q U A S I V E. And as much as we talked a little bit before, I'm not a huge fan of social media to put it as politely as possible. If anybody would like to connect, they can find me on LinkedIn and I'd be very happy to connect with them at Michael Reddington, c f i.

Robin: 46:21

Perfect. And folks, all that'll be in the show notes as always. And Michael, I can't thank you enough to tuning in, coming on and sharing your, your really humbling skills that you are sharing with us about how to be a disciplined listener. Thanks so much, Michael. I

Michael: 46:36

appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

Robin: 46:39

Thank you for tuning into another episode of Forged By Trust. Remember, if you want to forge trust, it's not how you make people feel about you that matters. It's how you make them feel about themselves. If you are interested in more information about how I can help you forge your own trust, building communication, interpersonal strategies, as a speaker, your coach, a trusted advisor for you or your organization, please visit my website at www dot people. Dot com. I'm looking forward to sharing my next Forged by Trust episode with you next week when we do a deep dive into how to serve with Pascali Bergman's.