Guided by Critical Moments: Solving Challenges with Storytelling w/ Dan Manning

🤔 Fighting Battles are full of critical moments, and They can become our greatest guides. But, choosing the right answers and not the easy answers is one of our greatest challenges. Therefore, check out this riveting episode with retired Air Force Colonel Dan Manning and discover how he went from leading and solving challenges in the air war against ISIS to solving YOUR greatest challenges with powerful Storytelling.  

🌟 What We Discuss with Dan:

👉 ⁃       Leading Air Operations in the fight against ISIS

👉 ⁃       Focusing on Pivotal Moments

👉 ⁃       Learning from others Through Storytelling 

👉 ⁃       Going for the Right Answers, Not the Easy Answers

👉 ⁃       How to Counter our Decision-Making Biases

🌟 About Dan:

Dan is a retired Air Force Colonel, story specialist, and expert in critical thinking, collaboration, creativity, and communication. With over two decades of experience in the military, Dan has flown fighter aircraft, negotiated with the Russian military, and worked as a speechwriter for senior officials in the US Air Force. 

Dan's passion for storytelling and his expertise in problem-solving have led him to help businesses build stories that hold attention long enough to get to YES! He is committed to teaching critical thinking, collaboration, creativity, and communication to teams who solve tough problems. 

🙏 Thanks, Dan! Reach out, connect, and follow Dan across all his social platforms:

👉 -       https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-manning2/

 
🌟 Resources Mentioned in the Podcast: 

👉 -       http://buildthestory.com

Pre-Order my Latest Book: "Unbreakable Alliances: A Spy Recruiters Authoritative Guide to Cultivating Powerful & Lasting Connections" HERE

Unlocking the Power of Trust: Keynote Speaker Robin Dreeke Shares Secrets to Creating Allies - Robin is the former Chief of the FBI's Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program. With over 30 years of experience in recruiting spies and building trust, Robin is the world-renowned speaker you need. Don't miss out on the opportunity to learn from a true expert. Contact us now to book your event! Click HERE to book a time to chat.

🤔 Take Robin's FREE YouTube Keys to Communication Online Course HERE.

😃 Check out Robin's Speaking, and Training Services HERE.

Transcript

Robin: 0:04

Fighting battles are full of critical moments, and they can become our greatest guides. But choosing the right answers and not the easy answers is one of the greatest challenges. Therefore, check out this riveting episode with retired Air Force Colonel Dan Manning, and discover how he went from leading and solving challenges in the Air War against ISIS, to solving your greatest challenges with powerful storytelling. Welcome to the Forged by Trust podcast. I'm your host, Robin Dreeke, professional speaker, executive coach, former US Marine spy recruiter, bestselling author, and your trust and communication expert. Coming up next on the Forged By Trust podcast.

Dan: 0:37

Humans speak different languages, they have different experiences, but we're not too different. Every story worth telling and every story worth hearing is a story of transformation. Hmm. It's always a story of change. And if you center your story around that change, it's going to be more effective. It's asking questions, making connections, and helping to sort of pull out those pieces that you need to be able to, to write.

Robin: 1:25

Today's episode guided by Critical Moments is with my good friend Dan Manning. Dan is a retired Air force colonel, story specialist and expert in critical thinking, collaboration, creativity, and communication. With over two decades of experience in the military, Dan has flown fighter aircraft, negotiated with Russian military, and worked as a speech writer for senior officials in the US Air Force. Dan's passion for storytelling and his expertise in problem solving have led him to help businesses build stories that hold attention long enough to get to yes, he's committed to teaching critical thinking, collaboration, creativity, and communication to teams who solve tough problems. During an episode today, we talk about leading air operations in the fight against isis. Focusing on pivotal moments, learning from others through storytelling, going for the right answers, not the easy answers, and how to counter our decision making biases. Dan, it is such an honor and a pleasure to have a, a really, a phenomenal hero. When I heard through you telling me that you did a career as an a 10 pilot, I just got goosebumps right off the bat anyway, because who does not love that air platform, but the striking thing to me. So anyway, welcome to the show. How

Dan: 2:36

are you? Thank you. Thanks. Thanks, thanks for having me. I really appreciate

Robin: 2:39

it. Look at me. Just trying to dive right in, cuz I'm really excited about having you here. So this is the most interesting thread I've, I've seen in someone. So here you are, you've done 25 years as an Air Force officer, an A 10 pilot. Thank you for your service, but you are. Amazing, majestic storyteller that basically helps people solve problems, forge, trust, innovate, all these things through storytelling. That's an unusual thread. What started that? Where, where did

Dan: 3:08

it all begin? Yeah, so, so if you know anything about fighter pilots, you know, that fighter pilots tell stories. In fact, as a when I was going through pilot training and then I, I stayed afterwards to teach the, the brand new pilots how to fly, and then eventually I went to the A 10.

Robin: 3:24

Okay. So we're gonna go back further in time, Dan. I do it. I, I am, as, as you know, I am a horrible host. I hear things. I, I wanna go back further. Okay. What, what inspired you to want to be a pilot?

Dan: 3:36

Hmm. Alright, so, so honestly when I was so if we go way, way back, yeah. So my so I had an uncle who was a weapon system operator. So a, a back seater. I think you flew in F Forest for a while and then in F 15 E and then as I, as I was growing up, you know, I'd hear about him and of course he didn't live nearby because there were no Air Force base around Alabama, or at least in Birmingham, Alabama where I was, where I was living a few times, grew. And you grew up in Birmingham, Alabama. Yeah, absolutely. And in fact, that's where I'm coming to you now from just outside of of Birmingham. But I would, you know, hear, hear stories about him and you know, sort of his, his flying career and what, what he was doing. So it always seemed like something that was pretty it would be a cool thing to do. And I liked, you know, going to the airport. My grandfather would take me out, we'd watch airplanes coming into, coming into land, and whenever one was flying over that was like, when my uncle was flying, he would say, oh, that's the, that's the plane that, that Mike flies. So I sort of from a young age started having this appreciation for, for flying and for for aviation and for military aviation. But it wasn't until I was in college and it looked like I had through R T C. And it looked like I had the chance maybe to go, to go fly.

Robin: 4:44

And it What And what did you go to college for? What did you want to do? Like when you were that age and you're seeing these things up in the air and you have these inspirational people around you, any had any sense of the path you

4:54

wanted

Dan: 4:54

to walk back then? Yeah, so back then, I just wanted to go to college was, so my well, like my family didn't, I didn't have like a college fund or anything right. Set aside. So if I was gonna go to college, I needed to figure out how I was going to do that. And the Air Force offered me the opportunity to, to do that through some you know, through scholarships. My major was in computer science. I was good with computers and it was something that I, I could do. At the time though, I was probably more interested in something like international relations, but there were no scholarships for international relations, but there were for computer science. So. Great. I'll do that. Nice. And then along the way, I did, I did pretty well. I had the chance to go fly. And really my attitude then was, if I have the opportunity to do it, why would I not do it?

Robin: 5:35

How did you have the chance to go fly? It's a, it takes a huge amount of effort, self-discipline, resilience, tenacity, as well as opportunity opportunities created through relationships. I mean, so here you are in college, you're majoring in computer science, and you just happen to have an opportunity to fly. How did that happen?

Dan: 5:53

Well, I mean, I was I was, was pretty good at RO otc, right? I was good at uhhuh. And you did Air Force RO otc Yeah. Air Force rotc and, yep. You know, my, my grades were good. I performed well at all the military things that I was, you know, asked to perform well at at doing. And I mean, some, some people there sort of, you know, sponsored me and, and, and said, you know, here's the kind of person that we want to to go fly. It was right at the time that I got selected for pilot training. It was among the smallest group of pilots that the Air Force had trained since. Maybe the Air Force started training pilot, so it was right in the middle of this, this drawdown. And what year? So what was was that around? So I graduated from college in 95 Uhhuh. So there had been a big reduction in the number of pilots that we were, we were producing them, but I was I was selected and then able to go to, to Shepherd Air Force Base, which was the the home of the Euro Natto Joint Jet Pilot trading program. So a bunch of NATO countries, including the us go train there together. And the idea was that you go, you train there together. Most of the people that trained there would go to fighters eventually. And then you would have this career where you had, you know, broad exposure to different cultures and different people and different ways of thinking. Huh.

Robin: 7:02

Pilot training, it's a long process, long road arduous as well. What were some of the key factors you learned during that you thought that you started bringing forward?

Dan: 7:11

Yeah. I mean, one of the things that I, that I, I tell a story about is sort of in learning the way that I learn. Hmm. And I, I tend to, if I'm learning something new, I'm a little bit slow picking it up at the very beginning because I'm going like way deep back. I wanna find those first principles and really sort of nail those down. And if I can learn those first principles, then I can build up from that and get better at doing it. Right. That's kinda what we're doing here. Sure. Yeah. I'm, I'm all in laughing. Yeah. I'm all in. So I went first to what was called the flight screening program. So it's before they invest a lot of money to make you a pilot. They would send you to go fly for a little while just to see if you had the aptitude to be able to learn fast enough to to complete pilot training. This was in hon Texas, so outside of San Antonio. Right. And before I went to that program, I had never. Maybe it had one like pilot training lesson, one of those free lessons that you would get at the airport and you go and, you know, you get the, the first flights free or whatever, right? But this was the first time that I was actually in a, in a training program trying to learn to become a pilot myself. And it was the ride right before solo. So the first time that you're gonna go out and fly by yourself. And this was a, a small, like acrobatic plane, a t3, Slingsby Firefly was the was the name of it, side by side propeller trainer. So it's a ride right before solo and I don't pass, right? I fail that ride. So then I fly with a supervisor on the next sort. I don't pass that sort either.

Robin: 8:41

Why aren't you passing?

Dan: 8:43

So honestly, I don't I don't remember exactly what the, what the problem was. Thinking back. I, because it was solo, it had to be around like landing or, or flying in the pattern. Cause that's the, the thing that you're most focused on. But honestly, I don't remember like the exact things that were there. But what I do remember is I finally go to the, the third time, right? If you fail three times in a row, then it's the end of the road, right? You're getting voted off the island and you'll go back to doing something else. So I go and I fly with an instructor. We we fly, we're taxing back to the towards the ramp. And either we turn left and he gets out of the airplane and I go fly solo and my career continues. Or he says, turn right, and we go back to the ramp and we park and it's all over, right? And the whole time taxing back, like, I don't know what the answer is. Like, I'm not sure what he's gonna, what he's gonna say. And then we get there, stop. And I do remember like looking over at him and he's looking at me and he says, turn left. Turn left. He gets out, I go fly. And then 25 years later here I am talking to you about, about pilot training and about those things that I did. But it all pivoted on, you know, these relatively small moments. Yeah. Right. These relatively small moments. And as I continue to understand like how I, how I learn and really how others learn as well, I don't, I don't fear that so much. Right. I know that if I go back and I look at those first principles and I can start building back from that, ultimately I'm going to be better than if I just sort of did the motions and went through the, went through the actions and you try to pick something up faster.

Robin: 10:16

So what do we learn from that that we brought forward into our next stage of training?

Dan: 10:22

So it is I mean it's really that not to be, not to be scared of moving slow at the beginning, right? That it's going to pay off and that focus on those, on those principles, go a little bit deeper and understand how you can create this repeatable success. Rather than this early, you know, move fast and right and do quick wins. Sometimes it's okay to, to dig in and go for that deep knowledge and, and build that over time.

Robin: 10:48

Nice. So what was next?

Dan: 10:51

So so after that flight screening program, I went to, to shepherd and I went there through through pilot training, and then I stayed there to teach. So I was a, it's called a first assignment instructor pilot. How'd you get, how'd you get assigned a 10 s so, so I taught for three years in the T 37. Oh, okay. So, so I stayed there after pilot training and I taught the brand new pilots. So my first assignment as a, as a pilot was to teach other pilots. Right. So I did that for, for three years and I was pretty good. That's a lot of rough. Yeah. Yeah. It was about a thousand. I think I had a thousand hours in the T 37. That's all. 1.3, wait, 1.2, 1.3 hours. That's right. Yep. But it was, it was great. Right? Because again, it's like all back to those first principles cuz you're teaching people from the basics. Like they show up, maybe they've done a screening program like we did before, but everything that they know about being a military pilot comes from that six months that you're, that you're with them. Right? And I was a pretty good a pretty good instructor. So at the end, the wing commander said, what do you, what do you wanna go fly? And I said, well, I think I wanna go fly the fly the eight 10. And he said, well, we have an F 16, we have an F 15 E and an F 15 C. Would you like one of those? Like, eh, I really like the A 10. It's like, all right, lemme go see what I can trade. So he trades away one of those other airplanes. And then he comes back the next day and says, all right, we got an A 10. You're in. What made you

Robin: 12:13

wanna fly the A 10? For those listening that might not know planes, so well give a brief description of what each of those are so they know the difference and the choice you made because I think that's really impactful that you decided to fly the A 10 and not the whizbang F 15.

Dan: 12:29

Yeah, I mean, so the F 15 C is all about, it's an air to air fighter, right? They were in fact their, their slogan is air building. That airplane was not a pound for air to ground. It was all designed to be an air superiority fighter. And it's very good at, at what it does. And it's all about you know, fighting dog, fighting other airplanes. And the people that go do that are incredible at, at that mission. But that really didn't speak to me. And then there's the F 15 E that I mentioned earlier that my uncle was a, a backseat or an n. And in fact, when we were considering like what aircraft we would get, there was some video that we were watching from. I forget exactly what operation it was, but there was some operation where the FFTs were performing and they fired a missile and the missiles in the air and the back seater is like switching the targets on the way. Like while the missiles in flight deciding, oh no, it should be this one. Oh, wait, wait, I was a mistake. It should be this one. And eventually the missile impacts, but I wanted every decision to be mine. Right? Right or wrong. It was my decision. And I'm the person who is responsible and accountable for that decision. And a two seater aircraft. That's not, that's not how, that, how that operates. Right? Right. The F 16 is a, you know, small single seat. They, they have some two seat versions. Single engine sports, car of an airplane. It does air to air, it does air to ground. And it's, you can be sort of a, a jack of all trades in that airplane. But what I wanted to do was do something where I could be, you know, maybe the best in the world at doing that thing. And the thing that the eight 10 does, it's a single seat airplane. There are no two seat versions that the Air Force ever, ever bought, but it is I'll argue with anyone, it is the best in the world at providing close air support. Right, right. For supporting the troops on the ground so that when they are in a fight, the eight 10 s show up and it'll, it'll change your day. It'll turn a, a good day, bad for the enemy and turn a bad day good for the people that you're, that you're trying to protect. It's mostly a, a gun that was designed and then they said, how can we fly this gun around? They built a, built an airplane around it, and the everybody that's involved in the A 10 mission is motivated to protect the people that are, that are on the ground, that you have this, you know, higher purpose for, for support and it's incredibly good at, at

Robin: 14:45

what it does. What was the inspiration to wanna support people on the ground?

Dan: 14:51

So the. The, the people that are on the, on the ground fighting are often they're gonna be younger than me. They're not, you know, sleeping in a nice new air force, you know, lodging with the big air conditioners and stuff that, that we have. And they are, they're out there for a long time doing the hard work. And if, if I can show up in the A 10, I want people to shoot at me instead of shooting at them. Cause if you shoot at me, I'll shoot back. I got a big, I have a bigger gun than you do. And, and often, especially like in Afghanistan, just flying overhead and making yourself visible was enough that the enemy would say, today's not the day. We're not gonna go and, and fight those you know, the Americans or the coalition troops that we're protecting there. And if I can show up in just my presence, being there makes life better for them and helps them to, to sleep better at night, then that's, that's a good, that's a good life.

Robin: 15:46

It's really, I, I wish the characteristic was more common in, in the world of that kind of selfless service of putting yourself in a line of fires for others and just making that choice. You were doing it. Did any idea who inspired you and modeled that behavior for

Dan: 16:02

you? Hmm. Well, one like, I wanna say that it's, I mean, it's not just me, right? It's every person, certainly in the eight 10 community, right? That is, that is why the eight 10 community is is the way it is, right? That that is the mission and that is exactly what people what people wanna do. And the answers I'm giving you would be the same answers that you would hear from any of my brothers or sisters that, that fly the eight 10. But

Robin: 16:25

it's way heroes answered, by the way. Keep going.

Dan: 16:29

But, you know, I think about it, it's kind of like the, the decision to be in the military. Like that's what you are deciding to do, right? That you were doing something that other people either. Aren't able or aren't willing to do. And it's just this it's service to this, to this higher cause. In choosing the aircraft that I was going to fly, I get to be a little bit more precise in the, the type of service that I was going to going to do. And and what you would find, especially like in, in Afghanistan was the only place that it flew, you know, the eight tens in combat. But people would come back from the field, they'd come back to Boger, and they've got the big, you're the big dining hall, and they're tired and they're, they're exhausted, right? But they would come back and they would meet up with the eight 10 unit there, and you would meet'em in the chow hall and you'd have dinner and they'd talk about how you save their life. Right? Oh my gosh. And you were you were there, you were doing your job and you were doing what you were trained to do, and you were proud to do it, but it made a real difference. Yeah. Like a legitimate difference in the lives of, of the people that you were there to protect. Wow.

Robin: 17:31

Powerful. All right, so what's next?

Dan: 17:35

So. All right, so I fly the so I fly the eight 10 for a while, and then eventually you gotta grow up, right? You gotta, you gotta do something

Robin: 17:44

else, unfortunately. Yeah.

Dan: 17:48

So, so like that point came when I was in it was my second assignment in Germany, and weather's tough in Germany, and at the time that I was there, the eight 10 s were also going through this major upgrade. So there wasn't very much flying to be had. And at the end of one year I was a I was a stand of a pilot, so I would give check rides to I could give check rides to anyone, right? The one that certifies that, yes, you're still good to fly, you're safe, you're capable you're good at the mission and you're good at, at, you know, flying around. But at the end of when you're doing that, I'd only flown like 25 times in the year. And most of those sorties were sorties where I was just giving instrument check rides, right? So, no, like tactical, I had two, I think two tactical training sorts in a year. And you just can't be, you can't be good at something very difficult if you're not doing it more than that. Right. So I said, all right, I need to do something different. So if I, if you remember, I mentioned earlier that when I went to college, I was doing computer science, but I was really maybe more interested in international relations, right. So I had the opportunity to get a master's degree in international relations while I was there, and I applied to be a a, a military at attache. Oh, wow. Working in foreign embassies. Yeah. And doing, you know, representing the US military to those to those governments. So I, I remember like filling out my, my application, I had the support of my, you know, the, the two star that I was working for at the time. And I picked several places in in Eastern Europe. And a couple months later they came back and said all those places you picked, you're not getting any of those. But

Robin: 19:18

what was your rank at the time too? I apologize for No, no. I

Dan: 19:20

was a, I was a major then. Okay. Yeah. So they so they came back and said, all those places you picked, you're not getting any of those, but you can either be the assistant air attache in South Africa, or you can be the defense at attache in Kurgastan. I was like, well, I'd love to learn to speak Russian. So and I'd, if I'm gonna be somewhere, I'd prefer to be the person in charge rather than the assistant to somebody who's not in charge. Alright. I

Robin: 19:50

got, I gotta stop. So you, you've mentioned this a couple times. You wanted to be the person in charge. You wanted to fly. You didn't want to be in a two seater where someone else might make a decisions. Any idea where that, that desire to be in command came from?

Dan: 20:03

Yeah. No, thanks for it's interesting to be on this side of this type of interview when I'm writing stories for, for other people. I'm, I'm sort of trying to make those connections and, and do that

Robin: 20:12

What was the first time? How about that? When was the first time good you recognized that you had a desire to lead?

Dan: 20:19

So truth, so truthfully, it was probably, it's probably in R O T C. Okay. Right. So we, my my sophomore year there, we had a commander who came in who actually was an F 15 C pilot, Uhhuh, and he was the, the leader of, of that detachment. He was a lieutenant colonel who came in in charge and he, yeah, I think he was the one that really like started teaching us about leadership and about what it means to be a, a you technically skilled in the career that you're doing, but also a leader where it doesn't sit. Do you depend on your technical skills? That leadership itself is a, is a skill. And I think he's probably the one who inspired that. And, and when I pinned on Colonel many years later he came back and I asked him to, to do the ceremony and he's the one that Pin me on. Nice.

Robin: 21:06

There you go. I was just curious because it was a powerful thread for you anyway. Yeah. Keep

Dan: 21:11

going. Yeah. So, so I decided I wanted to I wanted to be in charge if I had the option, and I wanted to to learn to speak Russian. So it happened to be that we were on a family trip in Scotland, I think at the time, family. And so my, my wife my son who was young, probably less than three years old at the time. Okay. And then my in-laws were there as well. And we're on the train and I have this conversation with the Air Force Personnel Command. And I said, all right, let me go talk to my wife. I'll call you back. And I go, and I, I talk to my wife, Heather. I'm like, so they offered us, we could either go to South Africa or to Kurgastan. I said, I think I'd like to go to Kurgastan. She said, where's Kurgastan? It's in it's in Central Asia, kind of close to to China. She's like, if that's what you wanna do, I'm in. So I called him back and we got on that on that path to go there. And

Robin: 21:59

how long has she been a military wife for? Because just saying we're in is it's, it takes a special person to do that. So good for heaven. Yeah.

Dan: 22:07

So she'd only at that point been a military wife for about four years. Wow. So not very long. We, we knew each other, you know, all of her life growing up we lived just a few houses apart, but after high school we went, you know, separate ways and then we then we came back together.

Robin: 22:20

And what was the inspiration to go for Russian?

Dan: 22:25

So, you know, so I grew up during the you know, during the Cold War days, right. And I dunno if you remember, but there was that, that TV show, the the day after, right? Which is about this giant, like nuclear holocaust. And it was a scary movie as a kid at that time. And I remember for you know, for months after that, you'd hear planes flying over at night and, you know, a kid's imagination. Like maybe that's it. Maybe that's the missiles that are. They were coming. And in fact, as kids, we even like had this whole plan for like how we would invade the Soviet Union and, and take over the take over the place as like fifth grade Red Dawn, the original. Yeah. Yep, a hundred percent. Yeah. So there was always like this fascination with, you know, with that time and that, that experience. Right. And I was, you know, pretty good at, at languages as well. And Russian's not not an easy one. It's not as hard as how did you, easier,

Robin: 23:17

how did you discover you're good at languages? Because you, you're like, you're sewing these saids of this Renaissance man, you just kinda blossom where you're touching. How'd that happen?

Dan: 23:26

Well, in, in high school I took you know, it took Spanish and it took, you know, French for, for a couple years and even, you know, Latin for a little bit. And then in college I took I took French and yeah, just kind of kinda came together. Nice.

Robin: 23:39

Nice. All right. So here we are. We're heading to K Stand.

Dan: 23:43

Yeah. So, so to get there though, it was A bit of a, you know, a bit of effort. So we spent a year and a half preparing for that assignment. So one year just of language training. Right. And it's all one-on-one, just you and a and a contractor in a small room. Every question that he asked, he's asking me, there's nobody, there's no place to hide. And then at the end of that, we, I was able to go and spend a month living with a Russian speaking family in Ukraine. Oh, wow. So they lived just outside of Kyiv and that was a great experience in in learning like real life Russian. Right. So like in my classes, I could learn to talk about, you know, political topics or Nuclear disarmament, but I couldn't tell, for instance, the the, the woman of the house, the, the grandmother there that I was full like, please don't bring me any more food. Right? I have plenty of, I've had plenty like, stop stop bringing it. So I had the opportunity to speak to people and learn those more more practical things. But the other thing I did was we did this fuel trip out to the last the last nuclear base that was in Ukraine, right at the end of the Cold War. The Ukrainians gave up their their nukes and the, the guy who was the last commander of that nuclear base, like stayed there and lived there and opened it up as a museum. Huh. So we, we drove out there and were able to go and you know, he'd take us around and, you know, show us the stuff in this old, this old base, which is pretty much everything was there except for the missiles. And, you know, he would tell us, you know, you can sit in this, you know, the control seat for these missiles and you can do this. And he said, I don't mean to offend anyone, but, you know, our targets were places like, you know, Houston and Dallas and these American cities. Like, this was the day after, but it was like years later. And I'm in the place where they were, you know, training to do that. By the end of the trip they were back in the officer's quarters. Cause that was one of the few officers that was there. And I'm drinking, you know, shots of vodka and eating pickles, you know, talking to the commander of the, the person who was tasked to be that side of, you know, the nuclear war. If the, if the time came. And, and for me in that moment, that was this like incredible turn of events and opportunities that had opened up to me for the way that, you know, that life changes and there's learning that can happen everywhere.

Robin: 25:59

What do you think was the most profound thing you took from that training experience before you went to Kurgestan?

Dan: 26:06

So it was, it was standing there with like, with that commander where we had, you know, in my lifetime we had gone from the place where we were a vowed enemies ready to, to dis completely destroy the world, to defend, you know, each of our own you know, ideologies to now we're, I'm speaking Russian, we're toasting, we're eating pickles, we're laughing together. And it was a time when you know, certainly politics had been transcended and it was just this like humanity, right? Like humans speak different languages, they have different experiences, but we're, we're not too different. What did you have in common? So, I mean, first we were both in the military. Mm-hmm. And, you know, I, I ended up doing a lot of work with with Russians as well, you know, later in my in my career. And there's this bond between people who have devoted their life to, to service of their country, right? Even though the countries can vigorously disagree and maybe be openly hostile to one another, there's still this underlying respect that exists between you know, between militaries, between people that are that are dedicated to doing that. And there's just this common understanding that transcends often language and culture and these other things to give you this place to build from. Right. That's

Robin: 27:26

great. All right. So what's next? We're done with our language training, our immersion in Ukraine.

Dan: 27:31

Yeah. So so then we spend six months at the the defense intelligence agencies where all the, the training for her at attaches Right. Happens and then we we do some, you know, cool stuff afterwards, some defensive driving, off-road driving, and Heather's able to, to go to all that as well. And she's if your driver gets shot, she's the person you want in the passengers. Yeah. She's, she's good at, at doing that. She's also a pretty good shot herself as well. Was she all in with all this? Oh, she loved it. Yeah. It was fantastic. She learned. Was she learning Russian also? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, she did. Oh, wow. Yeah. She had her own, her own teacher. They offered us the chance to be in the same class, but as I mentioned, we had grown up together. Right. And she knew how I was in in class and she knew how she was in class. And if we wanted to stay married, we shouldn't put ourselves back in the same class again.

Robin: 28:18

This is great self-awareness. Anyway, keep

Dan: 28:20

going. Yeah. So, so we finish that and then we, we go to Kurgastan for for two years. So it is I mean, it's a relatively poor you know, poor country in a, in a tough place in Central Asia. But there's this interesting combination of cultures in Central Asia, right? That you have the like the Kgi like to say that they were, their cities were never conquered by Ingas Khan, cuz they didn't have any cities. There were nomadic people. They lived up in the, in the mountains. So you have this ancient like, nomadic culture that's there and then Islam comes and then they have, you know, this persistent, you know, Chinese influence. The Soviets, you know, took over the place for, for 70 years. And then at the time that I was there, there was an American base there as well. Monas Airbase, huh? I think we were using to, as a refueling base to support operations in Afghanistan. So you had this really interesting you know, cross-cultural experience all happening in, in Central Asia. And it was it was remarkable just to, to meet people there and to learn how. You know, this, these different like amalgamation of cultures, you know, functions and works and just to understand people better,

Robin: 29:28

what was your greatest challenge in that assignment?

Dan: 29:33

So, I mean, practically it was doing it in Russian, right? So you would you know, you go, you meet people, you talk to people you know, I'm doing it a Russian, and then I would need to like remember, you know, like what we, what we talked about, right? And be able to, you know, to preserve those those memories. And it's I mean, it's a challenge, right? Like I'm naturally an introverted person. I do my thinking on the inside. I can be extroverted when, when I need to be, but being extroverted and doing it in a different language at the same time can be, can be exhausting. So you've gotta like lean into it and, and make it

Robin: 30:10

work. Yeah, no doubt. So what was next after

Dan: 30:13

that? So from there, I go back to the Pentagon. Mm-hmm. And I was working like international fighter training programs, mostly working on the the Afghan a 29 program, which is another small turbo prop type aircraft and a little bit of work. Lieutenant Colonel yet, or a colonel. Yep. I was lieutenant colonel by that time. But primarily the function I had was helping to bring the A 29 to Afghanistan to the af Afghan air Force. And during that time I also went back to Afghanistan this time as an air advisor working there, helping to implement that program. But interestingly, when I was there, the Afghan Air Chief. His English was not very good, but his Russian was still exceptional. He spent a lot of time training with the Russians when they were there, you know, previously. And we could have, you know, conversations in Russian that we couldn't have in English. And I was even able to bring him back to the US when we were releasing one of those, the first airplane, right. You know, to the Afghans. I brought him back here and translate it for him. When we were back in the back in the US it was this just a really weird, you know, twist of twist of fate in history that, you know, put us sort of in the same place at the same time. Yeah, no kidding.

Robin: 31:23

All right, so

Dan: 31:23

what's next? So, so I get back from that deployment, I was deployed only for about seven months. So I come back and I am I take maybe a couple weeks off, you know, spending some leave or whatever before I go back to my desk and I'm walking in to the pen. And I literally still have the box of my stuff in my hands as I'm walking in to move back into my desk. I have not put the box down. And my supervisor, my call sign was was beef. He's like, Hey, beef we just got a note, signature, sorry, was a great call sign. So he was like, Hey, beef, we we just got a note saying you're hot for another deployment. Like, how can I be hot for another deployment? I am literally holding the box of my stuff in my hands, like, well, you didn't stay there long enough for it to count as a short tour, so you're still on the top of the short tour list. I'm like all right. Lemme see what I can do. So I applied like that day or the next day to be a speech writer for the. Was applying to be a speech writer for the chief of staff of the Air Force or the undersecretary of the Air Force. Right. And I, I got hired for, for that job and nobody was gonna tell eventually was the under the speech writer for the undersecretary. And nobody was gonna tell the undersecretary that the speech writer that she had just chosen needed to go do this job that anybody else could could do. So I was able to, to do that speech right for her. And then when I did get promoted, then I went on a a one year remote tour then. So speech

Robin: 32:47

writers are really, really highly skilled, coveted communicators. It takes a special person and more importantly, to be recognized by others. Why do you think they saw in you that they chose you for that?

Dan: 33:02

I'm a pretty good writer, right? So like in the, the initial things that we had to, had to write for them to review, that was enough to. To get an interview. And then I'm you, you're a better judge than I am right now, but I'm, I'm pretty good at, at putting words together, right at, at communicating some idea in a way that other people can, can understand. And if you can, if you can do those things and you have the ability to think at the level that an undersecretary is, is thinking and help her to effectively communicate and formulate her message, it's it could be a real value add. You went to college

Robin: 33:36

for cyber, and yet you are this phenomenal communicator. Where did you learn, where was the crossover?

Dan: 33:46

So like, one of the so I've, I've won or earned whatever, a variety of different awards through my, through my life, but the one that I'm probably the most proud of was the top English. As a senior in in high school, because my teacher was fantastic. She was known Ms. Ms. Roby was her name, Uhhuh, and she was known as like the hardest teacher in maybe in the, the whole county. But certainly at that school, she had high expectations for her students and and you wanted to meet her, her expectations. And at the end of, at the end of that year, they have the little, you know, school award ceremony or whatever. And I won like her award for saying that I was, I was pretty good at doing English. So when I, when I think back on all the things that I've done, like that is one of the, the awards that I'm, I'm most proud of having having won. And I, as I mentioned, I did computer science because that's what paid for me to go to college, right? So I eventually had this opportunity to take sort of those skills from before and put them in, you know, in practice in the Air Force and do something completely different.

Robin: 34:52

I'm just smiling cuz I, I, I discovered the anchoring thread. I was curious what it was. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was our high school English teacher that gave us an award that in Yeah, that came to blossom later on as a speech writer for the undersecretary. That's remarkable. Yeah.

Dan: 35:09

So teachers are amazing.

Robin: 35:10

Yeah. With the right encouragement, they send us down a path that becomes our lives. It's, yeah. Truly inspirational. All right, so we're a speech writer. What do we do with that? So now we're in full-time storytelling mode.

Dan: 35:23

Yeah, yeah. So, so I'm pretty good at, at doing speech writing. So I get selected for promotion. Okay. So

Robin: 35:31

how do you define, I was pretty good at speech writing. How is that

Dan: 35:34

measure? So am mismeasured by your principal, right? So, right. Yeah. She continued to ask me to write speeches for her. Okay. So if if you, if you're delivering a product that your principal thinks, communicates their ideas and is helpful to them, and they're using your speech then that they're doing, you're doing the work

Robin: 35:54

I'm seeing the seeds for working with people, creating stories. No

Dan: 35:58

doubt this was it. Yeah. I mean, yes. I mean, like the stories that I create, I, I create them in the voice of the person whose story it is. Right. So I am a, I'm a tool to help them to communicate their story and being a speech writer, really focusing on how do I communicate ideas that are not necessarily my own ideas. Yeah. Or maybe they're ideas that I can internalize, but how do I communicate those ideas in someone else's voice? Like, that's the real, like the hardest part of helping people to write their stories. Yeah. How many, how many did you do? Speeches. Yeah. During that year, I don't know, maybe I probably did 15 or 16, you know, for her. And then I did, you know, sorted maybe four or five for like one for the secretary and some for the the assistant, you know, the vice chiefs of staff or whatever for the for the Air Force as well.

Robin: 36:47

How do you create a story that's not yours? I mean, that, that's, that's, that's, I never even thought about that till you brought that up. How do you do that?

Dan: 36:57

So, I mean, the, I mean, a big part of it is like exactly what's happening now, except I'm on the other side, right? It's asking questions, making connections, and helping to sort of pull out those pieces that you need to be able to, to write. And then it's listening intensively. Right. Listening to the, the types of words that people use, maybe there's a key phrase that they would keep going back to, or maybe there's you know, some, a little bit of slang or jargon or like, now sometimes I'll write for people who are, who are British, right? And it's a, a different style of, of speeches, more formal. But if it, if I want to write something that they can deliver, I've gotta write in that style for them. Or at the same time, I'll write for a, maybe a military veteran who is, you know, younger than me and is you know, has a, a different approach to life and the way that they are talking about their things. And you've gotta be able to serve both of them by sort of, you know, splitting your brain into the part that you need to deliver.

Robin: 37:55

I'm really curious, the, you seem, and you definitely come across as extremely passionate and into being a pilot and supporting troops on the ground as an a 10 pilot. Mm-hmm. And then equally, Just as skilled, passionate about creating stories for people. Are they

Dan: 38:17

connected in any way? So, I mean, there's the, like, the obvious connection is in the fighter pilot stole stories. There you go. Okay. And as an instructor, one of the things that we would say is that you'll never live long enough to make all the mistakes yourself. You have to learn from the mistakes of others. And the way that you learn from the mistakes of others is through storytelling. Okay. Okay. So even as I was, you know, teaching you know, new pilots, a lot of that is, is storytelling. As I was teaching people in the eight 10, a lot of that is storytelling. And on, on Friday nights in the, in the bar, I would be the the mc for the, for the events, which are. You know, it's not all, you know debauchery. That's right. You're right. That's going on there. Like there's, there's like legitimately like this purpose of, of bringing people together and whether you drank or you didn't drink it honestly, it, it didn't matter. There were people who would it would opt for, for either of those things, but it was coming together to build that camaraderie and to share lessons and, and ideas. And if you could find a way to make it entertaining at the same time and people liked doing it, then it was, it was good. It was a, it was a good place to be. You had

Robin: 39:29

all the, so it was a lifetime of reps, of learning how to tell stories inspired by your high school teacher. Yeah. With all these what's and how's or were fueling the why in your life. So, all right. So yeah, we're, we're starting to really flower and blossom on our skillset of being a storyteller and more importantly, telling, helping other people tell their stories what was next.

Dan: 39:54

Yeah. So, so I get selected for promotion while I was in that, in that job. And the under calls me into her office and is like, beef, congratulations you got promoted. I'm sorry, I'm laughing. I love beef. Keep going. Beef. And you know, she said you know, the, the four star, you know, really wants you to, to go to Sumter, South Carolina to Shaw Air Force Base. And he's, he's got this idea that he's working on. He really wants you to, to go there and, and be one of the, the people in charge of turning this idea into, into reality. But it's really gotta be something you wanna do because it's a, it's a hard job. And I said, you know what ma'am? The needs of the Air Force and family beef do not intersect in Sumter, South Carolina. That is that's just not something I'm interested in, in doing. I said, but this was just a couple months after the Russians had moved into. So we're fighting ISIS down there. The Russians, you know, set up a, a base down there. I said, I guarantee you that there are no Russian speaking fighter pilots at the Combined Air Operations Center right now. If you, and that's a one year remote tour away from your family. I was like, if, if I could do that assignment and somehow, you know, bring value using this very unique skillset that I have, bring value to that, that organization, like that'd be something that I would, I would stay into the Air Force and, and accept a promotion to be able to do. Two or three days later I got a call saying, Hey, you just got selected to be the the deputy commander at the, at the Koch. No, sometimes things work. Oh, that's remarkable.

Robin: 41:21

So tell me about that experience.

Dan: 41:23

So really my, my job as the deputy commander there was running sort of the day-to-day air operations in the fight against isis. Wow. So it's the actual execution of how we're going to do the, do the air operations. In doing that, I also. Ran the hotline between the US headquarters at the, at the Koch, the combined operation center in Qatar and the Russian headquarters in, in Syria. So in the beginning we would have calls, I think we did them three times a week with the Russians. So we call'em up making sure the hotline still works. Do you have anything? No. Do you have anything? No. By the end we were talking like 20 times a day about, as our forces continue to get closer and closer together, the deconfliction that was required to make sure that we weren't attacking each other's forces, that we weren't sparking some, you know, larger you know, war or fight that we or we didn't intend to do. That was was a full-time job, you know, working that, that part of the. And then separately, I was also a a target engagement authority. So I would approve strikes against ISIS targets, not the ones that were, where there were friendly forces, ones that were much further back where there were, you know, civilians obviously, but, and territory that isis controlled. And during that time, I think I approved something like 768 targets. Well I was there.

Robin: 42:45

What did you bring from your experience as a storyteller speech writer that helped you in this job?

Dan: 42:53

So, so I dunno if it's so much, even the storytelling, the storytelling part other than like, as I would talk, communication with the Russians, communication skills, that's exactly what I was going to, right. That as I would talk with the Russians, it was important to be like, to be clear, To be clear and to be trusted. Right Now we get to the Forged by trust. You know, part of the yeah. I'm just thinking about you

Robin: 43:20

as a speech writer, and that's exactly what you were doing. Oh my

Dan: 43:23

gosh. Yeah. So. So as I would talk to the Russians, you know, I I was a Russian speaker, but we also had very capable interpreters there because this is an, I don't wanna, you know, mistakes, I was pretty good, but I need other people there to, to help me, right? So I go from this place where I had believed that I was, you know, wanted to be alone, like making all the decisions myself and flying the eight 10, and sort of valuing that to this place where I start to learn that, that I do my best thinking when I think with other people. That when I have other people that are there to help me who are, you know, native speakers and they can help me to translate and help me, I would talk to them beforehand. Like, here's what, here's the message I want to deliver. So they're not having to make it up on the spot. We can have this conversation like, here's what I intend, like, what are you gonna tell them? And they would tell me. And then I would say, oh, I thought that word meant more of this thing. Like, no, no, no. It's really more of this like, perfect. So by the time we get on the phone now I can be sure that the message that I intend to convey is the one that's being conveyed. And then when they would talk back to us, you know, I could understand. 95% of, of the message that they were intending. But these native speakers could help me understand like what they weren't saying, right? Like, those are the words that they used, but here's like the, the underlying intent that they were, they intended through that, through that thing. And it was a really interesting, interesting time to start working together with other people in this you know, high consequence work where you needed the, the thoughts and the input of people from different specialties and different pieces of expertise to be able to make, you know, smart decisions and, you know, save lives. Holy

Robin: 45:00

cow. You were born to do that at that time in place. Yeah. I mean, thank, thank goodness you, it was you. I mean, Jace, that's just a tremendous, all right, so, Damn. What's next?

Dan: 45:16

Well, I mean, so the other thing that is important that happened here was in approving those strikes, right? I mean, 768 was a lot. And I was the first the first colonel to be doing it. Like before, before me. It was always, you know, general officers were the only ones that were able to you know, to give that approval. But as the strikes started becoming more they were able to and the, and the tolerance for, I mean, truthfully, the tolerance for getting it wrong was, was bigger. Not my personal tolerance, but the institutional tolerance. So they let someone who wasn't a general officer start approving strikes.

Robin: 45:47

So they gave you an awful lot of authority to do that. Mm-hmm. When no one else had that before. What were they seeing in you that you made them feel safe with the decisions you were making?

Dan: 45:58

Well, why? I mean, it's, it's tough, right? It's a tough thing to, for me to see, you know, from my side. But I I mean I think deeply about things, right? It's those sort of, those first principles, right? So the questions that I ask go back to understanding those first principles, and if I understand those now we can build something from that. And they would see that in my conversations with, with the Russians, right? I was the you know, for a long time I was the Russian expert in SunCom, right? SunCom focuses on the, on the Middle East, right? There were no Russian experts in the entire SunCom. So even general Botel, I would, I would talk to him sometimes about like, here's the way the Russians think about, about these things. And like, they say these things, but here's these other things that we have to be thinking about when we're making these, these types of decisions. So I was having, you know, conversations that were, you know, well above my pay grade, but they fell into the expertise that I was able. And I was the only one able to offer for a long part of that time. So when it came time to start making someone else you know, a target engagement authority, I was already there, you know, in the, in the battle cab doing the work. Like, all right, beef here, let's talk about how you, how you do

Robin: 47:10

this. Yeah. And then ma, you made them feel safe for the decisions you were making.

Dan: 47:15

Yeah. Yeah. What was next? This is an important, important part in, in like, literally the rest of my life. Yeah. Because what I, what I started to understand there was more about these cognitive biases that we all hold, right? These illusions that we, that we create, and some of them are, are easier to see, like quickly the language moves away from talking about people. That you're about to approve a strike on to kill and you start using other words to talk about people. Right. Even I called them targets just a few minutes ago. Right. Or you'll talk about you know, adult males or you start using these other words that sort of create this psychological distance between the work that you are actually doing, the choices you're making. Right? Right. And even in like target approval briefs for, for pre-planned targets, the Intel person will brief, like this is a suspected ISIS car bomb, you know, car bomb factory. We've been observing it for this long, we've seen this type of activity within the next time they say it, they don't say a suspected ISIS car carbide factory. They say this ISIS carone factory has. Or we've seen adult males operating around this ISIS car bomb factory, and they start like changing the speech. So by the end of the presentation it's like, well sir, do you want to blow up this ISIS car bomb factory? Which sort of removes all of that, that doubt and that speculation, that should have still been attached to that decision by the time it got there. And it would take an incredible amount of discipline from the organization to not be overcome by those, by those biases. Yeah. Right. Especially as the, the pressure to attack more. I was there as the administration changed, the, the strategy became more, more aggressive against isis. And maybe that's a choice. The democratically elected administration chooses to make, and it's our job to execute that, right, you know, that guidance aggressively. But as there's this increased pressure to, to attack and you have these cognitive biases coming together, it was incredibly easy for people to make decisions that weren't maybe based in logic anymore, or weren't rational choices. Because we as humans get sort of overcome by these illusions, and we make our decisions based on quick answers, even, even well-meaning people, right? That we go for what's quick rather than the harder messier answers that maybe are a little bit more difficult to get to, but are probably the right answers in those situations.

Robin: 49:40

What do you do to offset that, those biases?

Dan: 49:43

That's incredible. So, I mean, one is like being aware of it, right? Is the first thing. Like knowing that that is the thing that that happens, that you have this underlying current of bad things happen. Two is you need good leadership and we had. Tremendous leadership there at the time, and sort of their approach was for the strikes that we were doing, they're like, no single strike that you will ever approve will win this war, but you could approve a strike that will set us way back. If you strike the wrong place or if you you end up, you know, killing lots of innocent civilians, it could really hamper the war effort. So when in doubt, like don't strike at the same time you know, we're, we're fighting a war, right? Sure, we are. We need to degrade because if we can attack ISIS targets that are far back from the front lines, they never make it to the front lines, right? If we can destroy their ability to sustain their war effort, then the war effort will be, will not take as long. So you're still having to balance these two things. But then the last thing is we think better when we think with other people, right? So, like, legitimately working to make sure that you could get a variety of other opinions. And the, the two-star that helped you know, train me in doing this. You know, I would watch briefs as he would get them, the targeting people would come up and they would have the big map laid out. They have all their intel pictures and they're talking to him about the, about the target. And he would listen to them. He would ask questions, and at the end of the brief, before he gave his decision, he would ask every person around the table, even if they were just guests who had come by and happened to be listening to the brief. Do you have any, any questions or anything else we should be thinking about? Any doubts, any reservations? And he was legitimate about that question. Right? And gave everybody the, the chance maybe even more than the chance, the obligation to speak up if you think this isn't right. And only then would he make his decision about, all right, we're gonna strike it. Here's the, the restrictions that I'm gonna put on that strike.

Robin: 51:38

Dan, I got a question, and you don't have to answer it if you're not comfortable. Hey, I'm curious. That's a, that's a huge weight that must have been on you mentally for what you were doing. How did you and the people you work with maintain a, a sense of mental stability during that? I mean, that, that sounds really challenging.

Dan: 51:58

So the I'm not sure we did right. Yeah, because cuz what you, I mean what you do and what I've described, I mean, this is some traumatic decision you're making. I I, I was, I was in therapy for, for years afterwards. Right. But what you do, like when you're in, I mean, you know, this I think probably from your own experience is like when you're in the situation, you have to, to put up this barrier between you and your, like you can't think too much about the thing that you're doing. Right, right, right. Kind of sounds like contrary to what I was just saying, but you have to like leave that, that shield. Right. You have to leave that, that hard shell so that you can make those decisions that you know Right. Are the decisions that have to be made and put off dealing with them until later. Right. And that, the, the trick here is that you eventually, you have to deal with them. Right. If you don't deal with them, they will destroy you. Yeah. Like legitimately they will, they'll kill you. And that's, you see this, you a rash of of veteran suicides. Right. And it's because people in, in many cases like, don't deal with it. You can put it off for a while. It's the thing that you have to do to survive. But then you've gotta, you've gotta, you've gotta reckon with'em. You gotta come back and, and put those things together and then integrate those into you're the person that you've that you wanna become.

Robin: 53:14

All right. So that was profound. Are we ready to move on from there to what was next?

Dan: 53:20

Sure. So, so from there yeah. So from there I go back to the Pentagon and in fact, the. When I went back to the Pentagon, the expectation was that I would go back for just a just a few months and then would go be the go be na attache and Moscow. But but I wasn't done with my, my therapy, right? I wasn't done by taking care of all that other stuff. And so I made the decision, you know, if I can't go take that assignment, then it's time for me to, it's time for me to go right. It's time for me to retire and go do go do something else. So I finished up my my work there and Heather and I decided we've moved back to Alabama. We both knew that we were gonna start, you know, businesses ourselves, our families back here. We could come back at the cost of living is a lot less than it is in the, in the DC area as well. So we're able to take some risks that we couldn't take if we were still living in that area. So we came back, we bought some land, and now we have have some land. We're close to our families. We have a, you know, this building here that we run our businesses out of. And it's you know, a new, a completely new chapter in, in our lives and what we're doing. You say completely

Robin: 54:25

new chapter.

Dan: 54:27

Well, it's in the same book, at least we'll see. Yeah. You've, you've

Robin: 54:30

taken the, in this amazing skillset, so tell me what you

Dan: 54:32

do. Yeah, so most of what I'm doing now is helping people to, to tell stories, right? Stories that are about real life, stories that are designed to get ideas from my brain into your brain. So I'm not writing fiction, I'm not, you know, telling stories for you know, for a moth you know, podcast or a, a moth competition or whatever, which is a lot of fun. As well, I'm trying to help mostly founders, coaches and consultants to tell stories that get those ideas across, but at the same time ensure that they're heard, understood, and trusted.

Robin: 55:04

What are some of the challenges people have that you help them overcome in that?

Dan: 55:07

So, the first is people, especially founders, coaches and consultants, are very solution focused. Like they know what the, what the end is. But the people that they're trying to persuade are problem focused. Specifically. They're focused on the symptoms of the problem that they have. They may not even be experts on what the real problem is, but they know where it hurts. And you've gotta have, if you're telling a story, when you're trying to persuade that person, you have to speak in the language of, of that customer where you've gotta talk about those symptoms that they're feeling. And you build that into a story the way that humans have transferred information for a hundred thousand years. You build it into the way that humans expect a story to show up. And when you do that, it communicates. And there's tons of research that shows that as you do that, you also get this release of oxytocin in your audience, and that starts to build trust in them. So not only do they understand what you're saying, they, they hear sort of your approach, but they believe, you know, that's the kind of person I can trust to help me take care of this.

Robin: 56:09

So we build trust through storytelling, which I love. Yeah. Another turn of words you had, applied

Dan: 56:15

creativity. Yeah. So most of the time when people think about creativity, they think about like artistic ability, right? They think about maybe dance or painting or sculpture or something else. And those are fantastic ways of demonstrating, you know, creativity. But the creativity that I did in my career was focused on solving problems. Like, how can I think better than either my adversary or the problems to be able to come up with, with a good solution. So one of the things that I talk about is the you know, ISIS developed these small drones, right? Well, they bought the drones and then they rewired'em so they could drop grenades off of them. That was a creative act, right? That was taking something from one context, turning it into a weapon, and they were effective at making life difficult for, for us. But when people think about creativity, they're not thinking about that, right? They're thinking about painting pictures. So apply creativity is how can we use those same skills that you would use in artistic creativity, for instance, apply them to problems that come up with solutions that that work, right? That, that help us to eliminate these nagging problems that we've had, or even new problems that are old solutions just don't work for.

Robin: 57:23

And so, just so people have like one or two ideas on how storytelling can solve problems in their lives, what are a couple examples of, all right? Mm-hmm. Here's how a, great storytelling capability could actually solve this problem in your life, either personal or professionally, you think?

Dan: 57:38

Yeah. I mean, so like the most direct problems are things where you struggle to be heard and. Ah, yes. So I worked with with one founder, one of the very first, you know, stories for hire that I was that I was doing. And I had talked to him for several hours, but I didn't understand his business. Like he wasn't very good at communicating what it was that he was doing. And then he took one of my workshops and he said, Hey, can you, can I just hire you to help me write a story? Like, all right, yeah, let's do that. So I spent an hour interviewing him and asking him the questions that I needed to build the story. And by the end, he had a great idea. It was just hidden under all this, right, this clutter that he couldn't actually, you know, pull apart. So I wrote a story for him. He, you know, sends me a text a week later and says, I delivered that story for the first time. Not only did they understand me, they gave me my biggest check ever. Ah, like, ah, boom. All right. It works. And there

Robin: 58:27

you go. Dan, what are one or two things, if any, that I forgot to ask you that you wanted to make sure you shared with everyone before we get going?

Dan: 58:36

So like the, probably the most important part of writing a story and something I talk about in the, the storytelling course that I do is that every story worth telling and every story worth hearing is a story of transformation. Hmm. It's always a story of change. And if you center your story around that change, it's going to be more effective. And even in our conversation today, I've probably talked about, I dunno, maybe 15 or 20 different moments of change. And each one of those moments of change separates the way things used to be from the way they are now. So you can use those stories to guide other people in helping them to make those choices. You can hear other people's stories to give you more information, cuz you won't live long enough to make all the mistakes yourself. But you can also aim for those places where you create those moments of transformation in your own life, where you find those places to look for the opportunity to transform yourself into the person you wanna be. And if you shrink enough of those together, then you're, you're doing something. Dan,

Robin: 59:31

where can people go to find out more about you and bring you into their lives?

Dan: 59:35

Yeah, go to so always follow me on LinkedIn. I post a ton of content there and I'm engaged with people there. Also, you can check me on it, build the story.com and it sort of has all of our all of our services and you can see my LinkedIn content there as well. And I guarantee you'll get something that'll make you

Robin: 59:48

better storyteller. Absolutely, and it's all in the show notes as always, Dan, I can't thank you enough for sharing your profound story and the tremendous service you've been to our country and our NATO allies in the world in general. So thank you so much for coming on. And Sharon,

Dan: 1:00:04

well, thanks for asking great questions. I, I really appreciate the opportunity. You betcha, Dan.

Robin: 1:00:07

Thank you. Thanks. Thank you for tuning into another episode of Forged By Trust. Remember, if you want to forge trust, it's not how you make people feel about you that matters. It's how you make. Them feel about themselves. If you're interested in more information about how I can help you forge your own trust, building, communication, and interpersonal strategies as a speaker, your coach, or as a trust advisor for you or your organization, please visit my website@www.peopleformula.com. I'm looking forward to sharing my next Forge by Trust episode with you next week when we do a deep dive into Naked Leadership with Adrian Kohler.