In the Moment w/ Neil Mullarkey

🤔 There are pivotal moments in life where our confidence and creativity can truly shine. However, true success requires building trust together. Join me for this week's thrilling episode featuring renowned comedy master, Neil Mullarkey, and discover how sharing laughter, listening with intent, and living in the present moment can make life truly fulfilling.

🌟 What We Discuss with Neil:

👉 ⁃            Working with Comedian Mike Myers and Becoming Comfortable with Uncertainty

👉 ⁃            Listening with Intent

👉 ⁃            Bring a Brick and Together we will Build a Cathedral

👉 ⁃            Trust Begins When We Understand Our Story and the Story of Others 

👉 ⁃            Laughing Together

👉 ⁃            Being in the Moment 

 
🌟 About Neil:

Neil Mullarkey is a unique communication expert. You may recognize him from his performances in Whose Line Is it Anyway, two Austin Powers movies and The Pentaverate on Netflix. He still performs most Sundays with the Comedy Store Players, Europe's top improv troupe, which he co-founded in 1985 with Mike Myers.

Since 1999 he has travelled to 24 countries been bringing the skills of theatre and especially improv to public and private sector organizations large and small. Now he is running online sessions for clients across the world, sharing the skills that will make work more human and more fun for everyone in our hybrid world.

His new book, *In The Moment*, is published by Kogan Page in June 2023

🙏 Thanks, Neil! Reach out, connect, and follow Neil across all his social platforms:

👉 -       http://neilmullarkey.com/

👉 -       https://www.instagram.com/neilmullarkey/

👉 -       https://www.linkedin.com/in/neilmullarkey

👉 -       https://twitter.com/NeilMullarkey

 🌟 Resources Mentioned in the Podcast: 

** PRE-ORDER MY NEW BOOK WITH 20% DISCOUNT**

Use code KOGANPAGE20 via https://neilmullarkey.com/inthemomentbook 

Pre-Order my Latest Book: "Unbreakable Alliances: A Spy Recruiters Authoritative Guide to Cultivating Powerful & Lasting Connections" HERE

Unlocking the Power of Trust: Keynote Speaker Robin Dreeke Shares Secrets to Creating Allies - Robin is the former Chief of the FBI's Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program. With over 30 years of experience in recruiting spies and building trust, Robin is the world-renowned speaker you need. Don't miss out on the opportunity to learn from a true expert. Contact us now to book your event! Click HERE to book a time to chat.

🤔 Take Robin's FREE YouTube Keys to Communication Online Course HERE.

😃 Check out Robin's Speaking, and Training Services HERE.

Transcript

Robin: 0:04

In the moment, there are pivotal moments in life where our confidence and creativity can truly shine. However, true success requires building trust together. Join me for this week's thrilling episode featuring renowned Comedy Master Neil Mullarkey, and discover how sharing laughter, listening with a tent and living in the present moment can make life truly fulfilling. Welcome to the Forge by Trust podcast. I'm your host, Robin Dreeke, professional speaker, executive coach, former US Marine spy recruiter, bestselling author, and your trust and communication expert. Coming up next on the Forged By Trust podcast.

Neil: 0:36

So Mike Myers introduced me to improv and it's all about listening, working with what the other person says, and being comfortable with uncertainty. That trust begins when we understand our story. When we begin to understand the other person's story and acknowledge that story is still developing. Now if you go back to the very simple idea of improv, it's you accept whatever the other person says as an offer, a little gift. They've given you something to build a scene and you give them something back and they treat it as a gift. We call it follow the follower. You mentioned laser. Those are my five. Letters about, about listening. Listen to what's happening. Accept the reality of that person or what's happening in the world. Send an offer back so that you are now owning the reality. Explore assumptions. And then the eyes reincorporate, like I mentioned before, it's always fun to bring something back.

Robin: 1:35

The Forged By Trust podcast is a show where we explore the essential skill of forging trust for building an innovative culture and exceptional leadership. Join us as we delve into the behavior, skills and communication techniques required for success and learn from the best in the industry. Our guests include spies, spy recruiters, master interrogators, bestselling authors, thought leaders, and innovators who will share their insights on building teams, partnerships, and exceptional leadership by 4G Trust as your host, a global behavior expert and master spy recruiter, I will guide you through the process of building authentic connections based on trust. Stop settling for less and learn how to master communication skills you need to move beyond transactional relationships and into mutually beneficial collaboration and partnerships. Whether you're a student entrepreneur, c-suite executive, or parent forging trust is the key to unlocking your potential. Today's episode in the moment, it was my good friend, comedic genius, Neil Malarkey. Neil is a unique communication expert. You may recognize him from his performances and whose line is it any way? Two Austin Power movies and The Pentre on Netflix. He still performs most Sundays with a comedy store players Europe's Top improv troop, which he co-founded in 1985 with Mike Myers. Since 1999, he has traveled to 24 countries, been bringing the skills of theater and especially improv, the public and private sector organizations large and small. Now he is running online sessions for clients across the world, sharing the skills that will make work more human and more fun for everyone in our hybrid world. His new book in the Moment is published by Kogan and will be released in June, 2023. During today's episode, we talk about working with comedian Mike Myers and becoming comfortable with uncertainty, listening with intent, bring a brick, and together we can build a cathedral. Trust begins when we understand our story and the story of others laughing together and being in the moment. Neil, thank you so much for two things. I love how you're jumping around already. Thank you for coming on forged by trust. But more importantly, thank you for being one of the world's greatest gifts because you bring such joy, happiness to others and this power of presence. So

Neil: 3:45

thank you. Thank you very much. I'm far too low Brower character to be accorded such an honor. I'm a mere boulevardier on the improv theater stage, but I've been lucky enough to be given that gift many years ago and then shared it with people I. On the stage are the performers audience and people in business and organizations. Just, hey, the joy of Improv, which all started many years ago. I dunno. If you wanna ask me that, I could just go on, this could be my podcast. This is

Robin: 4:17

hands down. The easiest intro or opening I've done because you're already going where I want to go. What was a spark all those years ago that inspired you to get into improv to share this gift of yours, and where'd that journey

Neil: 4:33

begin? Well, I really wanted to be a comedy writer performer, actually. I when I was, you choose your A Levels

Robin: 4:40

here in United and I'm gonna stop already. Comedy level performer writer where, what was that spark? To do that? That's crazy

Neil: 4:48

amazing. It's crazy. It's stupid. It's not a proper career. In fact, when I was, when, when I was at university, you had to write a program for the, the Cambridge Footlights, the the comedy sketch group out of Cambridge University, and people would write silly things. I wrote. Neil wants to be a really alternative comedian, but his mom says he should get a proper job, and that's about who I am still. When you choose A levels here at high school in the uk, you choose certainly my day. You choose three, maybe four nowadays. And I chose physics, chemistry, math, mathematics. Cuz I thought I would be a doctor. You didn't need biology in those days. And then I was in the school play and my head was turned. I realized that if I did stuff, audiences would laugh. I. And I thought, no, I want to be a comedian. And comedians, there was Monty Python and others. And so I went to Cambridge where they had the Footlights, this sketch group that John Klees had been in and many other comedian types. And I got to be president of that. And so that was all about writing really good sketches, cleverly written sketches. You rehearse them, you're play in front of an audience. You rewrite them in light of audience feedback. And we toured the uk, Australia, and then I came back. We were playing a tiny theater in the west of London above a pub. And there was a guy sitting there selling tickets, and he was he was sitting in a wheelchair, not because he's a wheelchair user, but because we'd used all the regular chairs on the stage. There wasn't much furniture to go round, and he was from Canberra. And he said, I'm just here. My, my parents are British. I have a British passport. But I work in Canada. I worked with Second City. Ah. I was excited. Not many British people had heard of Second City, and his name is Mike Meyers and he made me laugh and he said, you know, second City, I'd heard a Second City because S Day Night Live and the Blues Brothers. But he said, it's not just the sketches you might have heard of, but there's improv. We, we create sketches through improv sometimes, but it all started with a social worker in the 1920s who created exercises to help children deprive children. And it was her son who said these exercises could work at a f as a former theater. And Second City was born in 1959. So Mike Myers introduced me to improv and it's all about listening, working with what the other person says, and being comfortable with uncertainty.

Robin: 7:11

Neil, what's interesting? Is these threads that we follow through our lives start at a really young age, and they come from the people that proceed us and the experiences that we have at those young ages. Many positive, some challenging. And you never know what they're gonna be with each individual. You had said your MO mother had said, get a proper job where she wanted you have a proper job. But all these things that you're talking about and your experiences and you're hinting at it already required a deep amount of presence and being in the moment, which is a title of the episode, do you know? What behaviors you might have start and been exposed to, or who modeled that behavior for you or, or where do you think that ability to be really present and see what was around you with that kind of deep curiosity where that might have originated from?

Neil: 8:00

Like many things, it was probably my dad. My mom also listened. My dad was a big comedy fan and we had so many running jokes in our family. My father had had a pretty tough time. Do you remember one by any chance? No, it was all in the moment. Oh, okay. Right. It writers, it was all, he would do this to me if I was mis babying. Right, right. With his eyebrows. And it is just little, little jokes. A little mo not even funny funnies, but just kind of moments where humor lubricated the. Discussion round the kitchen table, the Sunday lunch table. So I probably got it from him. I also noticed when you're a small person, you're a child, you notice which grownups listen to you and don't listen to you, right? And you warm to those who do listen to you, and I haven't. Neil Malarkey is my real name, and I just really remember people who got my name wrong. They call me Nigel or Neville thinking, oh, Why didn't you take the trouble? And then malarkey people think it's a made up name or whatever, but, but there are people who got it wrong. It's Mr. Mulligan, whatever. And I just, I just, I suppose those who took the trouble to notice me and. I also was a big fan of a guy called Desmond Jones, who was a zoologist, British zoologist who wrote a book called Man Watching, and he was a, a guest once on Parkinson, which was the big chat show here in the uk. And he talked about eye contact and body language. And I was excited because I noticed the difference when somebody looked at me and I noticed the difference. When they didn't, and I, I was small, so when they took on board a child that was, I suppose, something that made me think I want to be someone who does listen, I noticed the impact that it has on me. I'd like to be able to have a, a more positive impact on others. That's, I suppose, the the sense of being present. I, I would call it just being aware of other people, being in the present, being in the moment, in the now. That's quite a spiritual aesthetic thing, I would say. Yeah. And, and I've called my book in the moment, but a lot of people think it's like being living for the moment. Whatever happens, doesn't matter. And where in the moment was this matters, this moment with you and there'll be the moment may last. A longer time than three seconds. But in improv, the moment is here. It's very fragile. It's for the audience, it's for my fellow performer. And something could go this way. Something could go that way. And the seeds of possibility are there. But also you shouldn't hang on too much to where you thought it should go because. Pretty soon it's going somewhere else. And the joy of improv is going on that journey with somebody else and sharing the ambiguity and an uncertainty with a performer. And then, I guess I thought this is a really powerful listening ability. And I call it intent listening. Listening with intent. Right? And that's that's how I came across you because you talk about listen to validate rather than to judge, listen to somebody else's goals and objectives rather than your own.

Robin: 11:12

You said something really, you said a lot of really powerful things in there. One thing that I really gravitated to was moments are really fragile. How do you caretake a fragile moment to, to deliver it and package it well for someone else?

Neil: 11:28

Gosh, so I, I must always revert to what we do on stage, right? Because the moment can sometimes go, And sometimes newbie improvisers want to write the whole thing now. Right. And Dell Close, who created Second City, he said, don't write the whole thing on your own. Just bring a brick and together we will build a cathedral. Ah, beautiful. And that still makes me tingle, I can't help but have some idea of where it could go. And most people say to me, wow, it's terrifying. You dunno what you're gonna say on stage. And I say, that is where you need to be. And I remember Keith Johnston, who's one of the gurus of improv who died recently, who's British, but when went to Calgary, created theater sports, he said, it takes years of Zen Buddhist meditation to be truly empty in your mind. And if you find yourself on the improv stage, what wisdom you have gained, where you've got, you've got no idea what to say. For most people, that's terrifying. I dunno what to say. I look stupid. And when you watch an improv show, the audience loves it. When you go, that's their favorite bit. It's not how clever you are. Now, of course, if you're writing comedy and you. Stop, I dunno what to say. It. You, you've made a mistake, but an improv, you go stop. What is the moment telling me? It's almost like the moment is telling you where to take it. As somebody once said, improv is almost, it's less about creating than finding what's emerging. Oh my gosh,

Robin: 12:58

yes. Let's talk about that, Neil. These are such powerful observations, skills, tools, and techniques, the gift of listening as you're describing it. So we had this spark w you know, as you're describing it, where you meet Mike Myers and everything. So how do you make that transition from this early passion that was kindling from wanting to be a doctor

Neil: 13:23

to, to this. Well, I studied physics, chemistry, math at high school. Then I transferred. I wanted to do, they had a course at Cambridge called Social and Political Science. And you weren't allowed to do it in the first year. So I did economics and ele let me in cuz I had maths So I, even though I had physics, chemistry, I didn't have an economics, but maths was enough. But then you get into statistics and I wasn't very good at statistics cuz it's boring, it's numbers. Maths at its most beautiful is imaginary numbers and X and Y and the possibilities and the square root of a negative number leads you to land a man on the s on the surface of the moon. Anyway, so I did economics for one year and found it frustrating when they would say, well this is a rational behavior. Economic as a person will choose the cheapest and the seller will find the person who'll give them the most sort of thing. And I said, I'm not rational. I'm, I'm psychologically open to all sorts of persuasion, much of which I don't know about. So I did then two years of understanding sociology, social psychology, child development. There was a paper called Attitudes and Personality. So I was already interested in people and. I looked for some jobs in the world of social work, I guess, but then showbiz took me, I perhaps was turned again. My, my, let's do that thing. I was getting some sense. I could make a career of this, even though my mom still thought I

Robin: 14:49

should get it. What was giving you that sense that you could make a career of this? Well, because

Neil: 14:52

people, the, from the Cambridge Footlights, many people have emerged like Hugh Laurie, Emma Thompson, Stephen Fry. Olivia Coleman, and if they could do it, I thought maybe I could. There was a path. We went to Australia, we got our actors equity card, which is the union, right? And then I met Mike. We started making money. We started being lauded and getting good reviews, but then I became a writer performer doing radio and TV and commercials and stuff. And then I got to this stage where I thought, is this what I wanna do forever? Probably mid thirties, maybe. And I do, I liked movies. I like independent American movies, French movies. Should I be a director? I went on courses and to learn to be a director. And then I went on a producer course and I got excited by the whole idea of how to finance a movie. And I went, when I was doing movies and commercials, I thought, who's got the most interesting job? Ah, the producer, the director, they're on all the time. And I gradually started reading about the fact that people from the arts were. Asked into business and organizations to bring their skills. Gradually. Gradually. And then a turning point, I suppose, came when I heard about a man called Frank Farley from Madison, Wisconsin, who does provocative therapy. Did provocative therapy, and I went to see him in the Netherlands and he was teaching his way of intervening to coat executive coaches. I'd never heard of coaches, but there were these Belgian people, these Dutch people. And Frank's thing was almost reverse psychology. If somebody says, I want to give up smoking, you go smoking wise, smoking's fantastic. It's, it's great. And then it makes the client go, hang on a minute. Do I want to give up smoking? And he says, you, he called it. You do it with a twinkle in your eye, an open hearts chakra. And, and basically he was doing improv. He was saying, give me an offer, which is what we talk about in improv. And they, yes. And you know, I wanna give up smoking. No, the, the problem is you, you'll never give up smoking. Look at you, there's no chance. And again, the client goes, actually, do I want to give up smoking? So his ethos was already, already, and always. The solution is within the client, right? And I want to help them out. I want to satirize their self-limiting beliefs to bring out the solution they know that they can find and they can put into practice. And so gradually, I thought I could bring some of that to business. Improv is great cuz it's about listening, co-creating, working together. And of course I started saying it, and this is where my book, I've got a thing called a, a whole chapter called Serendipity. I said to people, I wanna do this, and then gradually the energy comes towards you when you say this, I think Gerta, the German writer had something like, if you say something, kind of energy comes to, he probably said it better than that, but it was kind of, there was an ad agent who said, oh, we like the look of Neil. Can he do something? Can you do 20 minutes standup on credit cards? No, luckily they spoke to my voiceover agent and she knew that I'd been talking about this. She said, nobody can do an afternoon improv. Somebody from a consulting firm was sitting next to my wife at a hen night and my wife said, my, my husband wants to do teach IMRF to business people. And they said, oh, this is great, because we've been getting Shakespeare and actors to teach them how to project and deliver. Beautifully. But improv is what happens if you have a tough crowd, if you have to be in the moment agile, the client doesn't know the script. And so gradually I put my head above the parapet and said, I think I have something to offer here. This idea of improv being in the moment, listening, working with ambiguity, has something to say to organizations.

Robin: 18:33

Absolutely. Let's talk about some of that. What are those skill sets that, that you don't have a script. You get on stage and you take and work with the environment around you and you manufacture beauty. How do you do that? What's the first steps to that? How do you overcome that fear? See, look, look at all these multiple questions I'm throwing at you.

Neil: 18:50

Pick one. Well I have the opposite fear, which is what if I get on stage and I've gotta remember my lines and stand in the right place and I, I forget it. So when I have done real plays, I'm always hoping something will go wrong. I love it. But I wrote a book called Seven Steps to Improve Your People Skills, and the main two chapters are listen and link. So listen to what the other person's saying and link what you are saying to what they've said. Hence, I mentioned you there about listen to validate rather than to judge understand their goals and objectives. Now if you go back to the very simple idea of improv, it's you accept whatever the other person says as an offer, a little gift. They've given you something to build a scene and you give them something back and they treat it as a gift. We call it follow the follower. Again, the idea you're not writing the whole script on your own. You're mely building a brick and somebody adds theirs. Somebody adds theirs. And the idea of an offer is essential. So it's about listening. So if I go. If I ask the audience for a location, they might say, hospital. I might start the scene by going, good morning, doctor. So we're creating theater and not stand up. And the other person might say, oh, good morning nurse. So I've given the offer of doctor, they've given the offer of nurse, but we also talk about choice. If I say, good morning, doctor, you have a choice, you could say, good morning, Mr. Johnson. I see your legs better. And then I've got a, and this is where it's really valuable, I have to make you look good. So you take my offer, I take your offer, you said my leg is better. Great. How can I make that work? How can I make your idea really fly? Yeah. My leg is better and I'm playing soccer again, football. And the other person didn't expect that. But soccer. Yeah. Yes. And I heard you scored three goals at the weekend, and that's the idea. And that's when you've seen in a show, an improv show. We give a little. Just it's short turn taking. Yes. And we, they throw it back. We riff, we riff. Nobody's writing it on their own. There's the, yes, I accept your offer and here's my contribution to move it forward. And that's basically the rule. And I did a two week course in improv. And very soon you begin to realize this is addictive. Yeah. This is the not knowing is powerful. Yeah. It's just great. And there's just, for example, what an early exercise is, there's a box here full of stuff and you pull out a whole load of stuff. And of course after about three, you can't think of anything at all. And that's when it becomes interesting. So you start saying rude words, and then you start saying really ornate, curious, exquisite phrases that you didn't know existed in your brain. And once you've overcome the hump, and this is where Keith Johnson, who recently died, this improv guru who created theater sports, he said, once you let go of the fear of being seen as mad, bad or wrong, you can become a good improviser. Yeah. So for many people improv is you are on stage naked and the audience will boo you. For me, it's the opposite. Your on stage and an audience wants you to win and you are with somebody, you're gonna create something. There's an opportunity for in unique moment that will all feel is just for us. It's the very opposite of what most people's fear is, is I come on stage and I say I'm vulnerable. I dunno what I'm saying. Isn't it marvelous? We're gonna do something together.

Robin: 22:12

So many more beautiful things in there. In order to get on that stage and have that excitement rather than fear, you control your context, which is really the only thing we can control. How do you overcome a negative context if you're someone to give them that positive context?

Neil: 22:27

Well, there's two things there. First of all, if it is a speech, a job interview, you probably should have prepared. And so in my book I say there are moments when you've gotta be prepared, and there are moments when you've gotta be improvising and the moments are equally important, right? You've gotta know which is which. And I came across this beautiful phrase that Woodrow Wilson used. The United States President, the only president. With a PhD in political science as it happens. And he said people think that government is accountable to Newton, not to Darwin. What he means by that is that mutant was about machines. The laws of motion, F equals ma. Predictable, right? Darwin was evolve, adapt. Now, of course, government, like any human organization, this evolutionist adaptation, you can't just press a button here and outcomes a sausage there. So what I say to people is, there are new moments of Newton. You've gotta learn your script, you've gotta prepare your slides, you've gotta show up on time, you've gotta clean your shoes metaphorically. But then if you stick to your script and somebody's talking about something else, you are foolish. But if you turn up and say, hi guys, I want the job. Yeah. Like, yeah, what are you gonna say? It doesn't look great. And, and that's why I often say to leaders, there are times when you've gotta step up and say, this is how it is. You have to model strategy. You have to tell the story. You have to say, I'm in charge. And there are times when if you adopted that, that coaching moment, that guiding moment, that co-creation in the moment where actually you have to be bold enough to not know. To ask the question, to not know the answer. And it's, that's why I don't envy anybody in a leadership position, cuz almost moment by moment you are having to juggle moments of step in no be, be clear and moments of fuzzy, I don't know. But not knowing could lead to somewhere amazing. So I would say to that person, you, you talked about, learn what you need to learn. Manage your state because there's every reason you should be nervous. If you're giving a presentation, you've got a hundred eyes watching you. It's terrifying because in nature, the only time you've got eyes looking at you is when they're about to eat you. So, It's Terri. It's, it's not natural. So make some unnatural preparation. Learn your lines, get there early. Put on your best. Whatever it is, listen to your favorite music so you're fully prepared, you're structured, and then relax. Breathe. Then listen to what the questions may be. Listen to what is emerging, the energy in the room, and you may have to adapt. So it doesn't mean don't prepare, but it doesn't mean prepare every single thing, so you can't adapt. So it's kind of almost prepare and prepare to improvise. And those are hard things perhaps to. To work together, and yet we do it nearly every day of our lives, don't we, Robin? For example, this morning you might have had a conversation with somebody at home, which is kind of like a similar conversation. You probably had breakfast, the same sort of thing you had before. You probably put on some clothes that it might be similar to what you did before. You brush your teeth in the same way. So there's plenty of prepared stuff. And then suddenly in, in the moment, something may, may change. So it's being. Open to what is really happening and not being flustered by that and spotting the opportunity where there's an opening and not panicking if there's a setback. Do

Robin: 25:56

you remember? What the first time was that you started to really realize, I have to manage these moments,

Neil: 26:03

well, what I can remember is that the first time I improvise on stage, I nearly fainted. I was with Mike Myers and you had to do a tryout spot. Five minutes. And we'd done, we got a three minute thing, two minute maybe, and he said, well, we'll improvise the next two minutes. And Mike Myers was my teacher and my comedy partner, he'd improvised across Canada and we said, give us something or, and what

Robin: 26:26

years? And my and Neil, what years

Neil: 26:28

were this? Oh, this, I'm very old. This is 1985. Right? Okay. So this is a small back room of a pub, really low rent. And our, our, the written bit was we go tequila, da da, tequila. And the gag was, we just say other words beginning with tea, and then at some point we'd open this jacket and said it would say tequila in it. So pretty soon we lost that bit. But anyway, it got us, you know, going But I literally, he was, Mike was doing stuff and I just went, yeah. Whoa. And I'd been on two week course, I'd done some stuff with Mike and I was, my head was swimming. I, I couldn't. Work out, you know, I did, I, I was outta my body. But then we started the Comedy Store players and we started doing workshops every Wednesday. So, I mean, that's in terms of the, the first time theatrical improvisation. I can't pick out a moment where I thought I need to bring this to life, other than slowly, slowly, having done it on stage, you thought, Ooh, isn't it? Isn't it great when, and this is where it's not all about me. Your book comes in, which is, if I just use what somebody said and give it back to them, they'll smile. They mentioned golf 20 minutes later, I mentioned, you know, we're at the 19th hole now, or we need a, we're in the bunker or something. Tiny, tiny, tiny. Which is a about accepting the offer. The yes and the delayed. Yes. And I suppose so. I suppose I saw it more as a. A positive thing in the same way probably around my dining table at home. My dad would do that, right? He, he loved crazy, silly humor. So he'd put, he'd put in incongruous moments when we're talking about this and he'd mentioned that, something like that. He particularly liked, he was a businessman and he particularly found a lot of the. Stuff they talked about pompous, corporate jargon, pompous stuff. So I I, I, I don't think there was a moment where I thought, ah, I'm a rabbit in the headlights, apart from that time with Mike. But I gradually noticed that the improv skills, which were yes, and playback what somebody said noticed when their energy rises, they talk about X or Y. Oh yes, if I mentioned that again, that'll be great. And that's, You know, you know all about that. That's why I love the title of your book. It's not All about Me. It's, it's about what makes you interested, happy, energized.

Robin: 28:56

Oh, it's beautiful. So going back and talking about, you've mentioned Mike a few times and what a, what a unique person to have in your life as you're doing improv. Was he far ahead of you in where he was at with his career or about the same? You know, I'm, I'm trying, trying to assess. Was he a, like a mentor guide or were you

Neil: 29:16

collaborating with We were, we were collaborators. I mean, the thing was he had been. Something of a child star, I guess, in Toronto. He'd, he'd been in commercials. Mm-hmm. So his mom had wanted to be a performer and sent him along to do tap dance dancing lessons. And I may be getting this wrong, but I, I think the story, the story goes, the, the word went out in Toronto. We need a kid with ginger hair who can tap dance. And there was Mike. And so he got to do commercials in Venezuela and, and all over Canada as well. So he became pretty wealthy, you know, in terms of a 12 year old able to do stuff. And, and well-known, I suppose. And then he started doing a thing on TV in Toronto, much music, and did this character called Wayne Nice who came from Scarborough, which is a, a suburb of Toronto. So, but when he came to the UK in 1980, he came on Halloween, 1984. I met him early 85. He knew nobody. So we were very much on the same level. I had an agent, I think I knew people in radio people would come to see me because they'd maybe seen the Cambridge Footlights or something. So we were equal. Of course, he had a huge talent. He's still the funniest man. I know. Funniest person. He was great at writing. He was great at improv. We wrote sketches to play in these pubs and then after a while we had an hour. We played in theaters and the Edinburgh Festival. So Mike was, we were comedy Double Acted Malar in Mars was our name. And then 86, he went back to Toronto for a few weeks. His dad was not well. He went down to Second City Toronto and they, they said, actually, we are ready to have you. Cuz previously he'd always been passed over promotion to, to the main stage in Toronto. He was in the touring company, so he came to UK because he had a British passport. So then he went back on the, I guess the, the rails that he'd been on previously, which was Second City then he went to Second City, Chicago, then Saturday Night Live and so forth. Right. But at that, that stage, we were, you know, equal. We were, we, we were playing these pubs and clubs and we couldn't afford to buy drinks. I remember sneaking in a tiny. Can of beer once for each of us. We couldn't afford what the customers were paying. Right? And if you ever find pictures of us, we look deeply undernourished. There, there is a YouTube from 1986, I think, at the Edinburgh Festival. And I. You know, we were, we were doing door splits, so we might get five pounds from from the person running the event or something like that. So but then he, you know, he's, he's my friend and became a, a mentor nonetheless. And we were always talking, and I did some rewrites on his movie. So I married an ax murderer. I'm in Austin Powers one and three, and then I was in his Netflix series, the Punta, so we're still friends 38 years

Robin: 32:00

later. Seen him all. So Neil, here's what I'm really curious about. Well, you really, I'm, I'm curious about all of this. Besides the eyebrows going, there's obvious things that we take from others. You collaborated a lot and, but what did he take from you? What do you think he learned from you?

Neil: 32:19

Wow, that's, well, he's always very complimentary about me. He's a what? I would say he's taken a, a further British sensibility, comedy sensibility. He already had that from his parents who are British, but then moved to Canada. I, you know, he's some characters I could see. We used to do a sketch called Dr. Wicked. So Dr. Evil. There were, there are moments Dr. Dr. Wicked was so evil. He was invisible, like the invisible man. So I wore a teal on my head with glasses. So there are moments he's taken from our shared banter and riffing. Sometimes there's a moment that I can see, you know, that was a, something from our sketch. He's taken a sensibility perhaps as well. You know, he, he particularly likes playing British characters. We would always play very posh British fellows. He would like that always. Cuz he went on a received pronunciation course and how to say kettle instead of kettle and sure. He sure. As opposed to Sure. You know, so I would say, what does he say he's taken friendship? I would say we are very loyal to each other. I saw him in last week. He was over in the uk. And we had a, we went to see Bletchley Park, which is where they basically decoded the Nazi's messages thanks to the enigma machines and others. Oh gosh, yes. And, and he's obsessed by that. His mom was actually in the uk and she was one of those, you know, those things, they, they pull out things across ships and airplanes, across maps. That was what his mom was doing. Oh, wow. So he just loves, he loves British history. Oh yeah. What have I given? I've given him friendship. I was what he taking for friendship? A British sensibility. It's sense of humor. And also this is something that famous people I, I feel need is people who remember them before they were famous. Right? And although they can go in limos, there's somebody who'll bring them to ground. And remember those moments when we couldn't. Afford stuff. Right. And we died playing some tiny place where it was a tough crowd where somebody said something unpleasant to us, another comedian or whatever those moments are what he's taken the for, for, for all his hard work and success. He knows where he, it's sort of, that was a staging post on his journey. You give the greatest

Robin: 34:47

gift that you give anyone that any human being could give, and the gift of presence of seeing people for who they are. It's such, it's, it's poetic. So Neil, how do we take that, that beautiful gift that he's taken from you, most likely, more profoundly than you realize about seeing him and being present? And what was the inspiration then to, to shift to, hey, I need to teach and infuse it in multiple aspects of life?

Neil: 35:15

Well, I knew that improv rule one is listen and accept what the other person says and use it as an offer. I thought that has profound applications in everyday life. Very simple idea is don't just stick to your script. What's she's saying? How can I work with what she has given me? Treat it as a gift. Yeah. And then when you really are Yes. Ending, you are kind of doubling your brain capacity. And that was a simple, I just thought if, if organizations could listen, individuals could listen to one another better, that would help. Yeah. And I remember doing a workshop for the first time for non-actors. It was a small. It's beautiful sort of Victorian theater in east of England. And I got there early and I said, I can't meet everyone. And they came into their little dressing room hours and I ripped off a bit of paper for each of them. And I just wrote, here's the secret of improv. And all I'd written was listening. So I thought listening was the thing. Very quickly though, I began and I was taught by participants and people at business school would have me in to illustrate some of their points, that there's a lot of stuff going on that improv has. To educate us on. So there's lots of leadership models about uncertainty leading through ambiguity. What I say isn't necessarily what you hear in an organization like Woodrow Wilson said, there's a whole bunch of stuff going on. It's lock not like a machine. We're almost like a complex E ecosystem where one thing happens and that affects another thing and then you are. Reacting back on the thing that originally happened there's a, it's a, there's a word called auto oasis, which is happens in biology. Is that a, a cell can, is both part of the system, but reacting with the system. And then I learned stuff that they were models and there was, for example, a model that leadership or teams can be like j improvised jazz. There's rhythms. And they're solo, and the leader can be doing the rhythm. They can be doing the solo or they could just listen. If there's too much rhythm, we don't get innovation, but if there's too much soloing, we get a mess, a cacophony. And so I could say, well, actually, I. Not everyone plays music. Not everyone likes freeform jazz, but everyone likes talking. Everyone likes comedy. And we can laugh with the yes and the yes and becomes the rhythm. And how create, how we create where, where the and becomes the solo. The yes becomes the rhythm. So gradually, gradually. And people said, okay, how, what about negotiation? Wow, I'm not very good at negotiation. Okay. And somebody said, you know, why? Not just every time somebody asks you to do something, think about how you might dramatize how to do it badly. Instead of saying you must do this in sales, you must do that. Let's create an improv scene where you're doing it badly. So, Robin, why don't you buy my things? Please, you idiot. Or you go, oh, please buy my product. Please, please, please. And, and I say, what? What's wrong with that? And then gradually you get people say, well, you're not really empathizing you, you know, you are being too weak or being too aggressive. And, and so we gradually buy, and this is where provocative theory company, you are provoking Bravo means for their voice, right? You bring out by offering a comedy, stylized a ritualized hall of mirrors of the wrong thing. Then they say, well, actually when I'm the customer, I want someone to listen to me When I'm selling something, I should notice what the customer really wants. I shouldn't just say, here we are. Here's a suitcase of stuff. Do you want it? Yes or no? I should be thinking, well, what matters to you? And that's what are the offers the customer's giving me? And I should say, as a leader, one of the moments when I should be saying yes and to my team when they come with ideas if I say yes, but I'm the boss, you know, listen to me, I'm losing perhaps some of their participation. On the other hand, leaders tell me, sometimes people just say, just tell us what to do. When are the moments when I've gotta say, this is the beat, this is where we're heading. And sometimes I've gotta say, what's the, what's the noise? What's the music emerging from the noise? And this guy called Frank Barrett, I, I mentioned, I didn't say his name, but he's the jazz, he's a jazz playing business professor Frank J. Barrett. And his book is called Say Yes To the Mess. And it's so much like improv. An improv scene isn't going that well. It's kind of messy. What's the story? Who am I, what's, what's at stake here? And then we find it and we acknowledged that there were some beats, some moments the beginning weren't right, but without that mess. We wouldn't have had the joy of where we are. Absolutely. And a case and Sonny might come and, and sort of sort out the scene and they, at that moment, they've choked off some possibilities. So gradually, gradually, I was taught by others that the improv ethos has more to offer than I realized. I thought it was just some listening listening's good? Yes. And. Positive view of life, but there's more to it. There's nuance, there's there's status and improv. We talk about status. A high status character becomes interesting, especially when a lower status character begins to realize they're higher status than them. Like Shakespeare. This the high status servant. Just things like how do you play status in an organization? Right. How do you place status on Zoom? And too often people are talking too much or they're scared to show status. So just those things using the glossary of terms from improv and theater open many more doors than I would've imagined.

Robin: 40:36

It's, it's been profound just listening to you describe all this. One of the things that pops into your head when you're saying all this and you have this beautiful, deep listening and all this muscle memory you have now around being present to absorb it all. It can be really overwhelming about where to start, like you're describing what's someone to do to start organizing and know where to start amongst everything they're consuming. I.

Neil: 41:02

Well the very first exercise I do with people is where I say, shut your eyes. Let me lead you on a story. And then I'm, I'm saying, you're right by the seaside. You're walking by a shop, you're doing this. And of course, pretty soon they don't listen to everything I say. They find a thing that tunes in with them. And then with a group of 20, you've got 20 different stories from the same series of offers. So I, first of all, I tell them, you can't act on everything, right. Notice the things that do impact you. Notice the things that impacted her more than you. We only listen, we can only listen to certain stuff. Yes. We tend to listen to stuff that fits our existing view of the world. So one thing is be aware that when somebody talks to us, they give, they're sending out lots of messages, and the main message may simply be, I need to just talk. Another, maybe what they're really saying, another maybe the way they say it, the way they underline certain words. So the fact is we can't listen to everything and that first exercise is be aware of what you are unconsciously favoring or not favoring. And then of course you, when I lead them on the journey, they go on along a road and they find a building and they find a box what's in the box. And people say, well, I found something I really wanted. I found something I didn't want. And I say, isn't that great from the same input you this diversity? But of course we begin to realize that story is the software that creates sense. And story is dynamic. So even now I'm trying to work out, I feel a bit bad. I didn't tell you the, I couldn't think of the first moment I needed improv skills in real life. And I may, it'll come to me in about three hours when I'm having my dinner. But story is, I. Is something that precedes everything. Even PowerPoint, an Excel spreadsheet. I believe there were cave paintings of story and story is one thing and then another thing. And then because of that, we moved to that and actually, Pixar have a thing called the Story spine, which is Right every day, duh, duh, duh. Then one day, duh, duh, duh. Then one day, and then sudden finally one day, and then now. Every day. So generally the story starts and finishes with the same sort of moment. The character has now become accomplished adult. Lost their innocence or something like that. So, so that's why I begin to say you can't notice everything, right? It's exhausting. And there are people who do notice everything and can brilliantly, you know draw pictures from a second of seeing something, but most of us unconsciously choose what to ignore. I guess I begin to say, what are you ignoring? Unconsciously that could be of use. And then there are times you have to decide what's the story where I've gotta work with that offer, right? What is my story? In hindsight, I can tell it more readily. So the best stories have setbacks. I'll tell you the moments when I thought, ah, this isn't working. I came away from my, when I first pitches from a investment bang, and they say, oh no, you haven't got your business speech talked. You know, what are the deliverables? What are the outcomes? I'd never heard these words applies to human beings, right? But it meant that I did sharpen my vocabulary, right? So for the people that I'm speaking to, that trust begins when we understand our story. When we begin to understand the other person's story and acknowledge that story is still developing, that who I am. It's because of who I was, right. And who I will be. It's who I'm becoming at some point. Kathy Salad, who's an improviser in New York she's becoming, I'm both who I am and who I'm going to be, which is beautiful because too many people say I'm who I am. And that's it. And another professor at London Business School nearby Armenia Ibarra she says, you want to be authentic to your future self. I love that because I'm still who I am, my values, but at some point, I'm not that 15 year old person I was, I'm, I'm basically him, but I've learned a little bit more. And my story is one that I can write, one that others can write. Mike Myers came into my story, and that's an involving story as well. And I guess it, it's getting people to understand that There's a whole bunch of stuff going out there. You can't listen to everything, right. Be aware of what you consciously or unconsciously saying no to. And you could be saying no to the person who said, you'll never make it. You can't do it. Right.

Robin: 45:40

I love it. Neil, you had a great few moments in there. Of beautiful transparency, openness, and vulnerability, which is a great forger of trust and it takes a lot of courage to those things. And you'd said something to me before about being excited about vulnerability. How does this one become excited about vulnerability?

Neil: 46:02

Well, I think you have to live a little bit and. We don't think it's what we should be. We're at high school. It's gotta be invulnerable. I've gotta be rigorous, I've gotta be robust. I can't show any flaws. And then you begin to realize that the teachers you like at high school are the ones who do show some vulnerability. Yeah. You do see behind the mask, you begin to realize that your friends are not the ones who are. Perfect. But the ones who allow their imperfections to be celebrated, share their imperfections. And when you get a bit older, you realize that you love somebody, not because they're perfect, because their, their imperfections form who they are and they just sort of fit, fit with yours. And they help you work on your imperfections as well and then, and embrace your imperfections. So I, I think when you realize that vulnerability is not necessarily weakness, but it's an understanding and an or of your not perfect, and also an understanding of without some vulnerability, you can't, you can't be creative without saying, I dunno, everything. Where would you learn? And I suppose that's where Brene Brown is the one, right? I saw doing a TED talk where sh where she said vulnerability is the beginning of leadership of creativity. And it's kind of, it put everything on its head. Really. It does because we, we all think leadership is about knowing all the answers and being perfect. And actually we know in real life that we want people to, to know their stuff, but when they accept that they're not, Perfect when they have moments of questioning, that is when a breakthrough can happen and wrap rapport. Absolutely a hundred percent, oh. Right. You know, you're not perfect. You are happy with not being perfect. And of course sometimes people only focus on their imperfections. And I said to stop it. Enjoy those moments. But what about the things you are great at and the things you could be great at? So I suppose I have to. I've lived through disappointment. That's a great, I've lived through disappointment. I've lived through failed ambition. I've understood my own limitations. I, Robin, I know one day I will be able to sing brilliantly. So far it hasn't happened yet. I just need to find the moment. And occasionally when I sing in French, it seems to work on the improv stage. That may be because I grew up in France and bef that was before anybody told me I couldn't sing. So you

Robin: 48:39

mentioned failed ambition. Are you at liberty to share what one of your failed ambitions is?

Neil: 48:45

Yeah, I think I wanted to be a, a famous comedy writer, performer, Uhhuh and. I know lots of famous comedy writer performers and it's fine for them. And I look at what I'm doing and I l I really enjoy it. Oh my God. I like going into organizations and they dunno who I am. They may have heard the Comedy Store and they may have heard of Austin, Paris, and I go in and say, look, there is this thing improv. Let's, let's play the game. And I come away and they are empowered and delighted. They've laughed together and I feel great. There's a, somebody from Hong Kong, Theresa Norton, who does improv and theater skills as well with business. And she said, isn't it great Because, you know, when you're an actor, you might spend three hours on stage. We spend 35 hours with people. Sharing the same joy, I think. Yes, of course I am helping people with their lives, which is Monday to Friday, eight hours a day. Yes. Or more. Yes. Rather than just they, I invited them to the theater for a couple of hours and they may laugh or may not, which I do as well, but I'm, I realize I'm actually part of them, understanding how they might be more creative, get on better with people, feel more themselves. In the daily lives that it, that they aren't just inside those moments and they watch something on the theater. And so that really empowered me where she, she was telling me that I'm, we're working with their whole lives, not just the moment they sit back and watch a moment of theater. So my, my ambition, I thought, ah, I'll be a writer performer, I'll be famous and rich. And I realized when I was. A certain age. The richness I want, I wanted then was, am I old enough to buy smoked salmon and be able to get a taxi when I want? And that was kind of, that was it really Uhhuh. And I'm not saying I don't want material things. I want to be comfortable. I'm very, very fortunate that I can have a house and provide for my family. And there are many people who would. Feel that is a, something they're not able to do yet, and they, and that's something that, In terms of the hierarchy of needs, they still haven't got that. I'm fortunate that I have smoked salmon when I want it. I have heating, I have clothes and the warmth I have of my family as well. I'm fortunate in those things. So I don't look back with regret because each of those staging posts, those left turns, those mistakes that, that thing I turned down with a really famous producer who's now a global character that was dumb. Well, was it part of the journey? Cause I was heading somewhere else, right? I didn't know it at the time, and hindsight can tell us. Plenty of stuff, but but again, I've found some research that the stories we tell our children or if we're a leader, we tell to our team, affect the way they feel. You can say, look, this happened. Isn't it bad? The world's terrible. And you can say the same facts and say, this happened. I made a mistake. I felt terrible. It was a disappointment. You know what I learned. But I got through it somehow. I got through it. And those two different stories affect our psychological wellbeing. So that's why o I often tell leaders to tell stories of their own vulnerability, their mistakes, hundred percent, and how they were open to learning from what might have been a setback.

Robin: 52:07

Hundred percent. Neil, I can go on for hours with you. You are just a treasure trove. You have a great book, in the moment. We have Delve so deeply into your life. I wanna make sure though, that you have a chance to share anything you want from the book that I didn't have a chance to ask you about the book, whether it's laser, whether it's anything else. What's one or two things from the book you wanted to make sure you shared before we we move on. Well,

Neil: 52:34

Thank you for that. The book is called In the Moment, and I, I've stressed to people who are fearful of in the moment living for the moment. That means being irresponsible. I say no, being in the moment, being present, listening to yourself, your unconscious, listening to the other person, and sometimes a moment could be a longer period. That moment, six months when you were realizing you wanted to change job. A moment can be three seconds where you realize it's hot, it's cold, there's a noise. A moment can be a, a moment where, In hindsight, you realize there was a change. So the book is, is using improv methods, but also saying when do we should we plan, prepare structure, right? And not to be worried about being in one or the other, but noticing when one is required versus the other. So it's, I I've said a lot of the stuff that's in it today about, yes, I have and, and you, you mentioned laser. Those are my five. Letters about, about listening. Listen to what's happening. Accept the reality of that person or what's happening in the world. Send an offer back so that you are now owning the reality. Explore assumptions. Explore, you know, really. Is that what you th you've taken that for granted. Explore how she really feels, what you thought she felt isn't actually, and then the eyes reincorporate, like I mentioned before, it's always fun to bring something back. Oh, you like skull or something of that you bring back and it's, they do it so well in Seinfeld and Caribbean enthusiasm where something happened and you bring it back later. It's, and it's a, it's a lovely way of creating a little bit of humor that's authentic and not bullying. You are, you are sharing the humor because somebody said something to you it's a that you can then bring back later. Or they might even say they have a child, a friend, a holiday, or when you mention it a few minutes later. So, laser is my five letter, the mon, but I talk about serendipity, I talk about virtual. I think we, we can't just keep saying, oh, I wish we we were face-to-face cuz Robin without. Us understanding virtual platforms, I wouldn't have got to meet you. It's the greatest

Robin: 54:34

gift. There's no doubt. It's,

Neil: 54:35

it's, it's gr i zoom and teams are great, but don't just take them for granted. Don't just say, well, let's just have a meeting. Turn on the camera. Think about how to make it more human, make it fun, make it interactive. Make sure everybody's voice is heard. Prepare. So, and this is from mark bowden truth plane.com. A

Robin: 54:54

great, oh, love Mark. Mark was on our show. Love Mark. Yeah, so this is smiley face.

Neil: 54:59

He has this just above his camera. Reminds him to keep up in both senses. Yeah. And what a gr And I share that with Peter. I say Mark Bowen. Who's a body language expert who teaches Zoom employees. So just stuff, make your meetings shorter, make your meetings fun to some quite technical stuff, but also talk about point B. Amy Whitaker talked about point B. She's got an MBA and a degree in fine art and point B, she's talks about when you start out on a journey, you don't, you're kind of creating your destination as you go. You don't go from point A to point B. You're creating point B sort of as you go. You are listening to what's happening. You have a sense of the rough direction, but if you are sensible, you are taking on board the reality. When people say stuff about you, listen, take it in the in the spirit, it's meant, oh yes, you are good at this. Yes, maybe I am. Somebody says, you're terrible. This okay. Maybe they're wrong, but just acknowledge that sometimes what things are emerging and almost the destination is emerging as, as you're on the journey. So that's kind of the, the stuff I talk about and storytelling. There's a whole chapter on storytelling and humor. I think humor, it is undervalued. It's, it's easy, it's very inexpensive technology. Yeah. Humor is not being laughing at people, it's laughing with people. Hundred percent. It's just smiling sometimes where we just say, Hey, look at me. What a mistake I made, or giving me the

Robin: 56:22

funny eyebrows a few times throughout this episode. See, how can you not laugh?

Neil: 56:28

Oh, or, or this, you know. Just use you use the medium? Yes. Just stuff like that. You know, get, I get people to play. Go and get a hat. You think that's frivolous? That's silly. But the research says if we are laughing together, we'll do the task a hundred percent.

Robin: 56:47

And for those that are listening and not watching on the YouTube channel, Neil is going up and down around on the screen, wiggling his eyebrows. You name it, he is doing it. Now he's back away from the camera. So. Neil from the bottom of my heart, thank you for bringing a, a light of joy in my world, in the world's world. Everyone please check out his content. And Neil, where can people go to find out more about you and bring you and your wonderful work into their

Neil: 57:12

lives? Well find me@neilmalarkey.com. Malarkey is difficult to spell and to spell or smell. So neil malarkey.com. I think you'll put it there. I, I, that's why be user a name on Twitter, on Instagram, neil malarkey.com. You'll, you can probably search me in any, anyway, malarkey and Mars, you might even find that, but malarkey I sometimes I say to mu things over to Lark about. The key opens. Mullar key.

Robin: 57:38

You're beautiful. Thank you so much, Neil. We'll talk to you soon.

Neil: 57:42

Thank you.

Robin: 57:43

Thank you for tuning into another episode of Forged By Trust. Remember, if you want to forge trust, it's not how you make people feel about you that matters. It's how you make them feel about themselves. If you're interested in more information about how it can help you forge your own trust, building communication, interpersonal strategies as your coach, your speaker, or the trusted advisor for your organization, please visit my website at www dot. People formula.com. I'm looking forward to sharing my next Forged by Trust episode with you next week when we do a deep dive and discover the Cure for Hate with Tony McAlear.