The Cure for Hate w/ Tony McAleer

🤔 Deep Toxic Shame can be a Powerful Unhealthy Motivator and Lead us Down a Dark path of Hate. But, when we Discover how to Reconnect with Humanity we can be saved.  Therefore, tune into the impactful episode with Former White Supremacist Tony McAleer and Discover the Cure for Hate Through Radical Compassion 

🌟 What We Discuss with Tony:

👉 ⁃       What Makes People Susceptible to Hate Groups

👉 ⁃       Shame and Powerlessness

👉 ⁃       Discovering how to Reconnect with Humanity

👉 ⁃       Curing Deep Toxic Shame

👉 ⁃       The Cure for hate

 
🌟 About Tony:

Tony spent 15 years in the white supremacist and neo-nazi movements starting as a skinhead and evolving to leadership positions and was instrumental in ushering in the internet building one of the first white supremacist websites for Resistance Records in the mid 90’s.

Tony’s expertise is gleaned from receiving over a thousand hours of one on one and group counseling to understand his own process. Tony has spent countless hours coaching and mentoring change in others and is a certified Life Coach.

He is the Author of The Cure For Hate: A Former White Supremacist's Journey from Violent Extremism to Radical Compassion. 

🙏 Thanks, Tony! Reach out, connect, and follow Tony across all his social platforms:

👉 -       https://www.linkedin.com/in/antonymcaleer/

👉 -       https://twitter.com/mcaleer

👉 -       https://www.facebook.com/tony.mac.330

👉 -       https://www.instagram.com/antonymcaleer/

 🌟 Resources Mentioned in the Podcast: 

👉 ⁃       Dov Baron’s Podcast Episode: https://www.buzzsprout.com/1940561/11506637

👉 ⁃       Life After Hate: https://www.lifeafterhate.org/

👉 ⁃       https://www.thecureforhatefilm.com

Pre-Order my Latest Book: "Unbreakable Alliances: A Spy Recruiters Authoritative Guide to Cultivating Powerful & Lasting Connections" HERE

Unlocking the Power of Trust: Keynote Speaker Robin Dreeke Shares Secrets to Creating Allies - Robin is the former Chief of the FBI's Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program. With over 30 years of experience in recruiting spies and building trust, Robin is the world-renowned speaker you need. Don't miss out on the opportunity to learn from a true expert. Contact us now to book your event! Click HERE to book a time to chat.

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😃 Check out Robin's Speaking, and Training Services HERE.

Transcript

Robin: 0:04

The cure for hate. Deep toxic shame can be a powerful, unhealthy motivator and lead us down a dark path of hate. But when we discover how to reconnect with humanity, we can be saved. Therefore, tune into this impactful episode with former White supremacist Tony McAleer and discover the Cure for hate through radical compassion. Welcome to the Forged by Trust podcast. I'm your host, Robin Dreeke, professional speaker, executive coach, former US Marines, spy recruiter, bestselling author, and your trust and communication expert. Coming up next on the Forged By Trust podcast.

Tony: 0:37

I truly believe that the level to which we dehumanize other human beings, how the level to which we hate other people is a mirror reflection of our own internal disconnection to humanization. And, and so at the, at the root of this dehumanization is, is toxic shame. And, and toxic shame is, is an alienation of the self. And it's, it's the feeling that we're not good enough, we're not smart enough, we're less than, we're weak, we're powerless, we're unlovable that we develop about ourselves. So it's, we become conscious of every moment in our actions and our choices in every moment. And we incorporate the three Cs of curiosity, courage, and compassion into those actions and choices. We can make a difference and impact the world in them in ways we can't even imagine.

Robin: 1:24

Welcome to the Forged by Trust podcast. My name is Robin Dreeke, and I'm honored to be your host. The Forged By Trust podcast is a show where we explore the essential skill of forging trust for building an innovative culture and exceptional leadership. Join us as we delve into the behavior, skills and communication techniques required for success and learn from the best in the industry. Our guests include spies, spy recruiters, master interrogators, bestselling authors, thought leaders, and innovators who will share their insights on building teams, partnerships, and exceptional leadership by 4G Trust. As your host, a global behavior expert and master spy recruiter, I will guide you through the process of building authentic connections based on trust. Stop settling for less and learn how to master communication skills you need to move beyond transactional relationships and into mutually beneficial collaboration and partnerships. Whether you're a student entrepreneur, c-suite executive, or parent forging trust is the key to unlocking your potential. Today's episode, the Cure for Hate is with the compelling Tony McAleer. Tony spent 15 years in the white supremacist and neo-Nazi movements starting as a skinhead and evolving to leadership positions, and was instrumental in ushering in the internet building. One of the first white supremacist websites for resistance records in the mid nineties. Tony's expertise is gleaned from receiving over a thousand hours of one-on-one in group counseling to understand his own process. Tony has spent countless hours coaching and mentoring change in others, and is a certified life coach. Tony's been involved in Life After Hate since its inception in 2011, and served as executive director from 2013 to 2017, while Life After Hate developed its online support groups and the Exit USA program. In 2017, he became board chair until his departure in December, 2019. Tony's work closely informing law enforcement and government institutions helping them grapple with the rising problem of violent white supremacist groups. He is the author of The Cure For Hate, A Former White Supremacist Journey from Violent Extremism to Radical Compassion. During today's episode, we talk about what makes people susceptible to hate groups. Shame and powerlessness. Discovering how to reconnect with humanity. Curing deep, toxic shame, the cure for hate and radical compassion.

3:43

Hey

Robin: 3:44

Tony, welcome to Forged By Trust. I can't thank you enough for joining me in the audience today and sharing your compelling story. Thank you for having me. It's, it's a true pleasure. I gotta give a shout out to our mutual friend Dove Barron, who is, was tremendous on my show. We've been friends for a number of years. I know you've been friends with him for a very long time, and he is a profound, deep, impactful soul. So I give great thanks to him at the beginning of this. And for folks listening, you know, make sure you tune into Dove's episode. Cause actually Dove talks about Tony on that episode as well. So I've been thinking really deeply about the title of our episode today, and that's The Cure for Hate and a, all of us tend to have these amazing backstories to become Hulu. We are today. And a lot of times that backstory starts in a place where the thing we eventually master in life is, is our greatest challenge that we have earlier in life. And all of a sudden we have this life affirming event that kind of flips the script on us and we dive deeply into that great challenge and we overcome it and then master it. And I think you are most likely one of the most profoundly impacted person by that kind of story. And that is, you know, the cure for hate. So if you would start us on that journey, where did the journey for understanding and discovering the cure of hate come from?

Tony: 5:04

I think we, if we wanna talk about curing hate, we need to, we need to understand what it is and what it is, how we, how we define it. And, and for me I truly believe that the level to which we dehumanize other human beings, how the level to which we hate other people is a mirror reflection of our own internal disconnection to humanization, you know, at its root really, it's, it's rooted in self-loathing and self-hatred. So how do we, how does that hatred get there? Right? How do we get to that place of, of self-loathing and self self-hatred? And you know, for me we would have to go back to my childhood. And I grew up, you know, contrary to popular belief I wasn't raised a white supremacist or neo-Nazi. I didn't come from a a, a broken home. There was lots of family dysfunction, but, you know, that's par for the course. I didn't come from a, a poorer disadvantaged family. I came from a middle class, upper middle class affluent family in Vancouver Canada of all places, you know, who'd have thought. My, my father was a doctor. I went to private schools and, you know, if I think back to who little Tony was, who little, who was the little guy that came into the world, who was the core essence of, of who I am today. And that was this bright, curious, sensitive, open to the world, little mischievous a little bit, a little bit stubborn little guy. And we come in, come into the world and life happens to us. And we learn it's not safe to be open. It's not safe to be sensitive. And so we, we put on armor you know, in order to feel safe and to protect ourselves from, from hurt.

Robin: 6:48

You mentioned not feeling safe. Do you remember the first time you experienced not feeling safe? What that was?

Tony: 6:54

I don't know if I can remember the first time, but I know the most significant time. Okay. And, and that was and it's probably, yeah, when I was nine, I walked in on my dad with another woman and he was a god to me. And he was as, as parents are we, we think they're these infallible, amazing human beings when we're, we're young and, and we go through a, so at some point in our lives and we're realize that they, God comes off the pedestal and they're all, and we realize they're all too human. I walked in on my dad with another woman. And when that happened, my whole world got turned upside down. And I lost faith and trust in all the authority figures in my life. And that was a very unsettling and unsafe feeling. You, you know, there's no stability, there's no security in the relationships you have with the adult world and at, at the age of nine. And I went from getting A's and B's at an all boys Catholic school to getting C's and B's. And the school tried many carrots to try and incentivize me to get, get good grades. And when that didn't work with my parents' full knowledge and consent, they settled on the stick. And if I didn't get A's and B's on major tests and assignments I was marched down with the teacher's office and I had to go in, put my hands on the edge of his desk and get hit on the rear end with a yard stick. And that happened.

Robin: 8:16

If it's too, too horrible to remember and think about what was your dad's or your parents' reaction to you discovering him? What was their response to you?

Tony: 8:27

His response was, he was worried about whether I was gonna tell my mom, you know, which, which which I did. He wanted to know if I wanted to, to meet the woman. Which I didn't had no desire to. And, and even, you know, later on, I think in, in, you know, defending his actions to my mom, you know, he said, well, at least I didn't yell at him. Like, I'm think like there was, there was a disconnect. And I've come to have compassion for my father because I know his childhood, I know his journey. Sure. And I understand it. I don't and, and I just wanna be very clear here. Everything I did that I, I did in, in my 15 years in the white supremacist movement I chose to do right. And I have to accept responsibility for that. I hold myself accountable for that. And nothing is an excuse. Right? The reason I share the things that happen in my childhood is so you can understand the lens through which I made those decisions, right? Of course. And so it's very important to, to, to say that. But in, in that office, I was introduced to shame and powerlessness. How so? And over and over again. You know, I can, I can think of when I knew what was about to happen to me wanting to be anywhere else but there in that office. I know that, but there's nothing I could do about it. I couldn't stop what was happening to me. I couldn't stop the violation. I. And, you know, I'm, I'm sure there's many of your listeners can think of a time where you, you knew something really bad was about to happen and there's nothing you can do about it, you know, that is at, that is at the root of powerlessness. Right. And so I became really an even more angry and, and, and acting out and St stopped listening to Queen and Elton John and started listening to The Clash and The Sex Pistols and getting into the whole punk music scene. And, you know, within that scene there's, there was skinheads, right?

Robin: 10:22

You know, these and, and help me with context also on Tony. What's the timeframe? What years

Tony: 10:26

were these around? When I was in that teacher's office, I was 11. By the time I was in the punk scene and meeting Skinheads was 15, 16, I was in three different high schools in four years. Sure. And, and what years were that? 82. 83. Okay. Early eighties. Okay. Thank you. Ear, ear. Early eighties and I was in this movement from the early eighties to the late nineties. Okay. And, you know, and I, and I was drawn to these skinheads and, and I remember the first time I met these skinheads in Vancouver, they were gonna beat me up and rob me for my doc Martins. And cuz they were in England where I got them from. They were dime a dozen in North America. They're really expensive.

Robin: 11:04

And you said drawn to them. What made you think, what made you feel drawn to them, do you

Tony: 11:09

think? Yeah, my parents asked the same question. They're like, Tony, you've got all, you've got your whole life. You've got all this advantage and privilege ahead of you, yet you're hanging around with these guys who have no hope. And they had the one thing that I didn't have toughness. I was a sensitive kid. I wasn't tough, I didn't win fights in the. The schoolyard and, and those two guys that were, that were gonna rob me on one day. My bullying survival strategy was be, defend the bully. Become the bully. And they became my best friends. And in order to have their protection, I had to have their respect. And in order to have their respect, I had to commit all the same violence that they did. And what I was drawn to was their, their toughness, their capacity for violence, and the fact that people were afraid of them. Nobody was ever afraid of me. And when I was with them, people were afraid of me. Not because of me, but because the guy standing next to me and the adrenaline rush and winning a fight for the first time, you know, with obvious help. That feeling of doling out violence instead of being on the receiving end. That false sense of power that came with, that juxtaposed to that feeling of absolute powerlessness in that teacher's office was intoxicating. And I liked it. And that was what, that was what the draw was. They had the one thing that I didn't, but craved, I wished I could have stopped the teacher in that, that office. I couldn't, I was too weak. And that's the, that's the draw for, for movements and organizations like this. And it went beyond sort of random skinhead stuff into more established and evolved organized white supremacist neo-Nazi groups.

Robin: 12:52

And if I could take a second, again, I wanna go back in time a little bit again. Sure. Before the horrendous event, when you're nine years old, what were your interests? What were your, into, what, what, what caught your eye? Because you said you were curious, what were your curiosities about?

Tony: 13:11

All kinds of things. You know, the, the teachers used to remark school, like he has a remarkable general knowledge. His, his general knowledge about stuff is, Is incredible. Like, I just was curious about why my mom used to always say, like, I used to always ask the question, why? Well, this is why, well, why is that? Well because of this. Well, why is that? You know, I was always, I was always asking why about things and I just, maybe it's just the way my brain was wired. But I was always curious about how the world worked and, and different aspects of it. And I would rabbit hole and get obsessed with things like acid rain when I was in grade three and different things. And but I just had this general curiosity and, and developed a, a general knowledge that was far ahead of my, my school years. Right. Can you tell

Robin: 13:58

me about your mom?

Tony: 14:00

Yes. She she was a flight attendant, so that was her first night away as a flight attendant that my, that I ran, walked in on my dad with another another woman. And so she was in this, this relationship and the challenge with You know, with my mom and, and my father's infidelity, was that I became my mom's primary emotional relationship. Mm-hmm. Right? It became a, a specified child, which, which in turn pushed my father further away and he became jealous of me. So it was this sort of triangle of, of sort of dysfunction that, that had me craving the attention and approval of my, of my father, but was never able to get it. And it wasn't until I was probably in my forties and after, after many, I, you know, probably did a thousand hours of one-on-one in group counseling with dogs. And, you know, and I, I finally got to the point where, you know, it's, it's, you know, so much of our suffering comes in life from. Trying to get or expecting to receive something from someone who's incapable of giving it in the first place.

Robin: 15:07

Oh my gosh. So profound. Yeah. You're so

Tony: 15:09

right. How crazy is that? I realized it was, you know, once, once I had, could develop a compassion for myself and, and, and, and, and my journey in life. And I looked at my father's eyes rather than anger at, at not loving me or not giving me attention or, or approval when I understood where that came from in his childhood and had compassion for it. And, and once I did that, my expectation, I no longer had the expectation that I needed him to give that to me. Right. And, and a great peace settled over that part of my life and, and my relationship with, with my dad. It's, you know, expecting somebody to give you something they're, I'm capable of giving. That's like insanity, right?

Robin: 15:51

It's also great empathy that you learned.

Tony: 15:54

Yeah. And, and the more we develop empathy with our, with the, with ourselves, the more we can recognize the humanity and, and, and others. And the more we can connect and recognize, recognize the humanity in others, the more I could connect with the humanity myself. And it's this sort of feedback loop of self-discovery and self humanization that took me out of, of living in a place where I was disconnected completely from the humanity and others, and disconnected completely from the humanity. And, you know, it really, what is the, the cure for that disconnection? And, and that what I've learned along this path is the answer is compassion. Right? You know, and, and for me, compassion showed up in, in three major, major ways. The first was the, the birth of. Of my daughter and my son 15 months later. And you know, they, before, before they could speak the word compassion, but before they had any understanding of, of what it meant or what it looked like, they looked at and saw the humanity in me. I could see it reflected back at me through their eyes, through their facial expression. So they saw this great, amazing dad when I didn't see that, when I looked in the mirror. Right? Right. I, I saw someone who was deeply flawed. And, and so at the, at the root of this dehumanization is, is toxic shame. And, and toxic shame is, is an alienation of the self. And it's, it's the feeling that we're not good enough, we're not smart enough, we're less than, we're weak, we're powerless, we're unlovable that we develop about ourselves, that deepen our subconscious identity, belief system that happens through experiences that we witness or have happened to us or people tell us stuff. And, and we live our lives in reaction to that. And you know, Dr. James Gilligan, who was a forensic psychiatrist in San Quentin, I think, or one of the California federal penitentiaries said that toxic shame was at the root of violence. And he wasn't aware of a major or serious act of violence in prison that wasn't rooted in shame and humiliation. Oh, yeah. And he said all violence is an attempt to convert shame into self-esteem.

Robin: 18:08

Yeah. We've had shame as a topic on the show before as well. Yeah. I'm curious, so little Tony, as you call him, sensitive, sensitive young guy. I know where you were really young back then when this all happened, but with, with these interests you had, did you have any semblance of the path you wanted to walk at all? I know it was young, I'm just kind of curious.

Tony: 18:30

I. You know, astronauts, there's, you know, there's all kinds of different things that, you know, wanted to be a doctor, like my dad, you know, sort all these, all these cure things. But a lot of that got disconnected and snuffed out right at an early enough age that it never really came to to a fruition. So when I went to university, I had no idea what I wanted to do. I wasn't connected to any deeper, deeper desire. I, I'd lost complete contact. With, with, with little Tony.

Robin: 19:02

Yeah. So, so that kind of, and, and thank you for taking a few minutes to kind of frame this background for me to understand and get context, all right. So we've had, we've had this experience with the two bullies who now became our best friends and we're being drawn into these organizations that make us feel powerful because we didn't feel in control or having power earlier. This is high school timeframe, so, and you talked about a second ago that you did go to university, so bring us up to speed, right? In high school where that timeframe and getting drawn more into letting go of little Tony.

Tony: 19:37

Yeah. The, the i i w I was a smart kid. I wasn't a tough kid and intellectually and I had this great intellectual curiosity and appetite and was very well-read. So I was in the intellectual big fish in a very small bond.

Robin: 19:50

And you say intellectually well-read. What would you like reading? Do you remember? Oh,

Tony: 19:55

just all, all kinds of stuff. I mean, when it, when I started to get into the white power thing, I read mind camp. I read, you know, philosophy of national socialism and what the different strands of fascism looked like. And I, I took an intellectual curiosity and wanting to understand it. And, and so did this deep dive, which kind of made me dangerous cuz when people wanted to come and confront me with ideas I, I was able to bring to bear. You know, if you try and argue with someone who knows all who's read all the numbers and can articulate them, and you don't really know them, it's, it's not a fair context. Even if they're, even if they're wrong, you can't really argue with someone who's got that much.

Robin: 20:37

Depth of field. You had depth of field depth,

Tony: 20:40

depth of field, and, and so that was, that was my skillset that got me the admiration of these guys that, that were very capable of violence, but none of them could, had anywhere near close to depth of field that I did. And so, right, that's what allowed me to step into that leadership position. And then I started to, you know, I became very ideologically driven and, and started, took it from random street violence and started organizing it and reaching out and connecting with groups like Arian Nations and White Arian Resistance and really starting to build it into a, to a a broader coalition of, of organizations and taking my curiosity around technology and, and starting a computerized phone line that was like a voicemail system and using that to spread messages. And so I'm

Robin: 21:28

curious, Tony. With these other people that were in these organizations that you're now organizing and part of, we know what drew you into it? What do you think drew all them into it?

Tony: 21:40

That's a great question. That's a great question. And, and invariably, it, it's, it's it follows a similar, similar themes. And the thing that your listeners might be most surprised to hear, it's not about the ideology. Primarily the ideology is a part of it. The ideology is a, is a pill we have to swallow in order to get these deeper psychic needs met. So when I think about myself, why did I join? Why, why did I get so involved? I got power when I felt powerless. I got attention when I felt invisible, and I got acceptance when I felt unlovable and I got purpose and meaning when I, where I, where I had none. And those are the deeper drivers that make people vulnerable. Why do some people listen to the ideology and say, oh, that's nonsense. And why do some people listen to the ideology and spend time with these groups? And all of a sudden it's, it's their primary social circle. And, you know, they, they become really into the, into the social movement. It's because they have these vulnerabilities. That's, that's what separates that's what separates a person. And invariably I've learned that almost everyone that's involved in these movements has those vulnerabilities. There's some research done out of the University of Maryland and there's studies of terrorism or responses to terrorism. They looked at ex former extremists and looked at a series of questions and, and data from them. And the number one correlated factor in the history of somebody joining a violent extremist group is childhood trauma, right. That the average American has, 15% of the population has two or more adverse childhood events. Two 66% of the extremist population has four or more. And, and what do these adverse childhood events do? They, what does the trauma do when the, the scar heals and the, and the memories fade. They leave behind the mark of shame and toxic shame. And that's what drives the behavior. That's what drives the antisocial behavior. That's what drives the violence, the physical violence, the verbal violence, the emotional violence. It also drives self-harm addiction as, as you've probably covered, covered in your show. So in order to get these deeper psychic needs met and, and I'll tell you this, this quick little story. Yeah. The, I co-founded an organization called Life After Hate in 2010 and was there for about 10 years. And we was six former. Leaders in the, the white supremacist movement and we, we went to go and help people leave these movements behind to help the people who are what we once were, because those programs didn't exist when we tried to leave, and I got a letter in 2018 from a mother who was worried about her son is her son was neurodivergent. I think he was had Asperger's syndrome and was spending a lot of time in his room and he, he'd really become quite involved online with, with this white nationalist group. I don't remember which one it was. And she said I'm really worried about my, my son. He's spending all this time with him. And she said, what terrifies me most is these white nationalists have embraced and accepted my son in a way that no one has in his entire life. When he was 12 in grade seven, he invited his entire class to come to his birthday party and nobody showed up. You think about the deep psychic need that child has, and one of the strategies that these groups use is to love bomb people. Yeah. You know, and, and to, you know, cocoon them in love and acceptance and pat's on the back and, and social circle and belonging and, and to feed that psych need. I think that child would believe the earth was flat, if that's the ideology he had to believe in order to get those needs met. Yeah. You know, we will, the, the, the ego will twist and rationalize anything in order to get these deep, deep needs met. And so that's, that's a great sort of example to, to sort of highlight the, the psychic needs driving people getting involved in these groups as opposed to the intellectual ones. That challenges is once people are in these groups and they've swallowed the ideology. Yeah. Ideology and identity become intertwined.

Robin: 25:54

Were you able to say, say that guy?

Tony: 25:57

I, I didn't work with with that guy. I was passed on to someone with. It required deeper level of foundation and stuff like that. But we've, we've helped seven or 800 people leave groups behind. Geez.

Robin: 26:11

All right. So I, and so many rabbit holes. I'm going down. I apologize. I'll bring us back on the, on the main track. So we're in college we're studying, what are we studying?

Tony: 26:21

Oh, sciences, psychology. And what did you wanna

Robin: 26:24

do besides lead the ary nation?

Tony: 26:28

You know, when I was 18, I wanted to be a b brewmaster. Oh, okay. And I looked at, you know, what do I need? I need a biochemistry or a microbiology degree. And I'll go to this place in Edinburgh where you could get a technical degree and, and then go work in a brewery. And I think my dad brewed his own beer growing up. And it was a way for me to false bond with, with my father. It's it, it's, it's remarkable when I think about that, how that relationship with my father impacted things because, As I got involved with these different organizations, they all had father figures that would give me all the attention, acceptance and approval, the pats on the back from these father figures by acting out and overachieving doing movement and political stuff, right? That I kept doing more and more of it in order to get that attention and approval from the father figure that I could never get from my own father. And, and you know, people said, well, did you learn this stuff at home? I said, my dad was bombed by the Nazis during World War II in Liverpool. You know, I said, it's a funny way to be angry at your father to put a poster of the guy who sent the bombs on your bedroom. All right. You know, and, and you know, the only thing worse than my dad's negative attention was his indifference. And if I couldn't get positive attention from'em, I could easily provoke and, and needed to provoke negative attention just to get attention. Right.

Robin: 27:55

All right, so we've got through college. What was next?

Tony: 28:00

Then this sort of became a career for me.

Robin: 28:02

How does that become a career? How does hate become a career?

Tony: 28:07

Well, it becomes what, what, when it becomes identity. It wasn't just what I believed. It was who I hung out with. It was what I read, what I watched, what I wrote. Everything I did was, it was all consuming. I'm sure I had jobs to pay, to pay the bills, but everything went towards. Furthering this, this goal. I was sort of, it became an, an, an obsession and, and, and, and,

Robin: 28:32

What kind of jobs did you have? Cause I'm seeing like a two parallel lives. You had, was this a, was this white supremacy thing, something you were hiding? Were you broadcasting it? And what kind of jobs did you get? How did that impact jobs? I mean, how did, how did you function in society or was it completely accepted and fine the way you were living?

Tony: 28:51

It became less and less possible to function. I know when I was a skinhead, I was working with a sort of small bond dealer in, in, in the investment world. And it, I really didn't have much interest in that. And so I drifted out of that, but for I think about seven years of all things, I was an exterminator. I did pest control. All right.

Robin: 29:15

So, we're doing pest control and, and running the Arian nation. It is. It's what a dichotomy. All right. So keep not, not

Tony: 29:26

exactly what my parents had in mind.

Robin: 29:28

Well, yeah, actually that's a great point. What were they thinking and what was going on with your parents' relationship at this time with you?

Tony: 29:36

I, I don't think my relationship with my dad ever fully recovered. I was pretty estranged from'em, but my mom always kept the door open a crack. I think my mom's love for me was unconditional. Her relationship with me was very conditional. Did they know what you were doing? Yeah, no. Cuz it was on TV and it was in the newspapers and it was, I was sort of the spokesman and, and local leader of this stuff. So it brought all kinds of unwanted attention and shame upon the economy. Wow. They, they hated it. And did they stay together? Until until about 10 years ago. So, Hmm.

Robin: 30:18

All right. So we're, we're now doing this. What's next?

Tony: 30:25

Then I find myself in the delivery room. It wasn't a the mo with, with the, with the mother. It wasn't a healthy relationship. I was in the middle of breaking up with her for about the 15th time when she, after three months into our relationship when she told me she was pregnant. So I found myself in the delivery room and I About how old were you now? Oh, 22.

Robin: 30:46

Oh, so very young,

Tony: 30:47

right? Yeah. And I get. The nurse hands me this little baby girl, and I'm the first to sort of hold her. And, you know, she's tiny and fragile and I'm worried about her. I'm gonna drop her. I'm, I'm gonna sort of hurt her in some way and I'm terrified of what to do next. And she's got this little scrunchy face and she opens her eyes for the first time. And I know that my face was the first picture her brain took. And, and something happened to me in that delivery room, and it started the tip of my head and went down through the bottom of my feet. And I knew I was a different person leaving that room than when I entered. I had no idea what that change was, but I know that in that moment when she opened her eyes, I connected with another human being since I couldn't remember when, because up until that point, I was completely disconnected from my heart. I didn't, I didn't operate. I suppressed any feeling that I hadn't operated from. Head mind, ego and, and I was a complete narcissist, right? And with the birth of my daughter and I had a son 15 months later. Same mother. Same mother. Yeah. Well, I won't get into that, but who only wants shame on you? Fool me twice.

Robin: 32:07

Little Tony's making interesting choices, right?

Tony: 32:10

Yeah, absolutely. But the best in, in the end what looked like the, the, you know, the, the worst choice of I could be making turned out to be actually the, the best choice. And I remember my coming back from the movies. My kids are 15 and 16 at the time and with a friend, and my dad goes, Hey dad, were we planned? And I said, oh, absolutely son. I just wasn't aware of the plan.

Robin: 32:40

Perfect. All right, so, so your daughter's born, she melts your heart and you're not aware of that. The melting began what was

Tony: 32:50

next? Yeah, the melting began and, and my son 15 months later, and I got to parent them the way that isles wanted to be parented, which was very cathartic. I got, I gave them all the attention and approval that I never got, and I was

Robin: 33:02

very How. Okay. So help me understand how you were able to do that. So here you are, you're a leader of the Aryan Nation and you're an exterminator and a single dad. What did that look like that you're able to give them something that you didn't

Tony: 33:16

have? There was a lot of dysfunction there. Like this was not the, this was not the model scenario to raise children. There was, there's definitely dysfunction there, and this is where my mom comes in and the relationship with my mom, who as I said, loved me unconditionally, but her relationship with me was very, Conditional. And when I was two and four, when they were two and four, I separated from the mother. And when they were four and six, she left the country to pursue a relationship. And there I was, this single father with two children who could barely look after his own life. And so she taught me a very important thing about compassion. And my, my children gave me this really great lesson in compassion, and they taught me that, you know, when we're compassionate with someone, we hold a mirror up and allow them to see their humanity reflected back at them when they can't see it on their own. And that's what my children gave to me in the way that they looked at me and treated me when seeing this great parent that I couldn't see when I looked in the mirror, my mom taught me the second really important lesson about compassion. And that is compassion is truly, truly powerful when it's combined with healthy boundaries and consequences. And so she leveraged that relationship, the conditional part of the relationship. I needed her help. She knew I needed her help. And she used that to, you know, her help was conditional on lessening my involvement in the social circus, lessening my activities, not doing television interviews, and sort of used that, you know, tough love approach of healthy boundaries and consequences to sort of steer me away from that world and,

Robin: 34:53

you know. And what was your response when she was trying

Tony: 34:55

to do that resistance? Right. Because this was, this was my identity. This was who, who I was. And, and that's the challenge is if you try and talk to somebody and say, Hey, you know, here's the facts and immigration, immigration actually benefits the country. The, the problem is ideology and identity are intertwined. And when we trying to attack a person's belief system, we actually are also unwittingly attacking their identity, right? That that doesn't go down without a fight. You know, people shut down, people, you know, overreact or get angry, or there's all kinds of coping behaviors to deal with an identity attack. So that, that didn't work. But what the children did was to sort of, to soften and, and melt that behind. And, you know, and, and it's completely unfair, but in the, in the nineties, single dads were like unicorns, right? So, oh my God, you're single dad. Oh, that's must be, that's fantastic. I get, you know, getting all these pats on the back. No single mother in the nineties got a pat on the back for being a single mother. Right. And so I started to get healthy attention, acceptance and approval for being a single dad. At the same time, I'm struggling to give up and clinging to this identity over here. And, and

Robin: 36:13

I'm sorry. And I'm sorry, Tony, I got another, as I'm painting these pictures, I'm curious about you and your mom at this point. Because she's playing a, a, a pretty critical role in this and she's doing something with you that she's steering your behavior, that's attacking your identity, and yet she's still in your life. You haven't shut her out. What was she doing or what was the driving force that, and how was she riding that balance, you think, o of, of starting to, to turn the rudder of your ship without you saying get overboard.

Tony: 36:47

Because I needed her help raising the children. That was the leverage. That was it. One thing for me to tell my mom to get lost, but it's, I have to tell her to get lost and I have to tell her to get lost on behalf of my children as well. And that was very difficult to, to do. You know, I, up up until that point, you know, if you'd asked me when I was 20, I would've said, I'll be dead or in jail as a white revolutionary by the age of 30. And I'm fine with that. When I had two children, I couldn't honestly say I'd be fine with that. You know, it wasn't fair to them. And the, the activities that I started to, that I was doing was starting to impact, or always did impact the quality of their, their life. The, the ability for me to be a provider was, IM impaired by my activities over there. It limited social circles. I had my mom take them to preschool so that other parents wouldn't think, oh, well you can't hang out with those kids because look who his dad is. Right. You know, there was all kinds of complications in my children's life that they didn't deserve, that they didn't ask for it and Right. You know, and I, as much as I would've presented like a sociopath, I wasn't a sociopath. That was just my, I'm not feeling this. I'm, you know, a manual disconnection from my feelings. I still had a conscious underneath. I still felt guilty. I still felt connected to these children and wanted to see the best for them. And there was, there was a conflict between what I was doing and what was best for the children. And my mom leveraged that, that conflict and, and in a masterful, in a masterful way, it wasn't easy, didn't happen overnight, right? But it was just the constant pushing on the rudder until the, the direction of the, of the ship started to change. And the more distance there was between me and that, and that movement and those social groups the less, the, the psychic bonds to the people and the, the less the less power that it had over, over my life and the more my children became to pro prominence. When my children were born white, white supremacist, political stuff was number one. Children were number two. You know, like that. But slowly, The children, and rightfully so. They should be, they should be number one, right? Became number one. And, and as distance happened, it became less and less important to me. And the more I was able to step into the identity of single father, the more that became important to me. And I still kept the same beliefs, but when I decided to leave those movements behind and focus, excuse me, focus on my children, what I said to myself, how I self rationalized it was I said that, you know, I'm, I'm definitely not gonna be one of those guys that, that you know, does the high school circuit. You know, they'd only see me now, right? But I can only see me now. But you know, if I, why should I fight for a bunch of white people who really couldn't care whether I lived or died, right? The vast majority of white people couldn't stand who I was or what I believed in. If I really want to do something for the white race, I make sure these two children thrive and survive. And that was how I rationalized the pivot. From being white supremacist leader to being single dad while keeping my identity intact. Right. And not allowed a further transition away. And, and that identity became less and less and until it was non, non-existent. So what, what do

Robin: 40:12

you think was the final break? If, if there was actually a feeling of a final break where we decided that, alright, wow, I was full of hate, I was wrong. I need to do something different. If there was one.

Tony: 40:27

Yeah, because I, I w when I left the movement behind and there was, there was a vicious murder of a seek caretaker in, at a temple in Vancouver in 1998. And I had met the guys, I didn't really know them, but I'd met them. They were recruited by the guys I had recruited that happened in Vancouver. That was, you know, it would it. It wasn't for moral reasons that I was upset about it, but it was just like, this is, that's too much. It's bad for business. That's how disconnected I was. Right. I spoke in terms of this is gonna bring too much heat. This is, you know, I didn't think about that poor man or his family who I've since gotten to know in the last few years, his son-in-law and his grandson, and been very involved in the sea community and memorializing his memory and, and and death. But it was it was something that shocked the, the entire community and made it easier for me to walk away. Like things are getting out of control. I don't want any, any, any part of that. In a very sort of selfish and self-serving narcissistic way cuz that's where, where I was at. And so when you leave these movements behind, we call that disengagement. Right? You know, where I'm not involved in the groups, I'm not involved in the activity, but I still have the beliefs right. And even though I wasn't engaged in that activity I still had that anger and toxic shame it had never been dealt with. And, and so I'm still mean to people. I, I was always very condescending and, and humorous in my deep cutting sarcasm with, with people. I could make people laugh at, usually at someone else's expense quite easily, but be very hurtful to that person at the same time. That was sort of the specialty and you get that growing up in an English family anyways, right? And I started a new career as a financial advisor in 2004. So I left in normal's murder with 1998 2004. And I started to have some success in that. And I started to do these personal development workshops and, and you know, a friend of mine who'd been doing some work with Dov said, Hey, you gotta come to these, check out this this workshop. So I started doing these workshops and that's where I first met.

Robin: 42:36

What, what was the spark that wanted that made you inspired to do some self work? That takes humility and at this point, you know, humility might have been still kind of low.

Tony: 42:47

So there was someone else in the, in the movement in Toronto. His name was George Birdie who was very high profile like me very well-read quite intelligent like me. We were, we sort of had this bond together. And he left at the same time. He was sort of disillusioned with the whole thing. And ended up he married a, a woman of Indian descent and he started to explore Buddhism and, and sort of eastern mysticism and, and philosophy and, and shared that, shared that with me. And, you know, in, in 2004 he came to Vancouver and we went. To a PNA meditation retreat together. It was his second time, my first time. For anyone who doesn't know what the PNA meditation is, it's a 10 day silent meditation retreat. So there's no reading, no writing, no talking for 10 days. And, and after about four, four and a half days, the monkey mind sort of settles down and, and you, you, your mind is not full of constantly filling random thoughts and you can start to learn this technique to develop a, a deep inner awareness. It was one of the most difficult things I've ever done. It was one of the most profound things that I've ever done. And, and getting to the sense of beginning to understand and experience the, the deeper connectedness of our consciousness and, and our existence. And, you know, being aware of the i, the idea that we have a soul. I was. Into atheism, atheism and and such when I was in, in the movement. And so I started to develop this spiritual curiosity and, and there's the curiosity again and, you know, took me down this rabbit holes. It was a film that came out around the same time called What the Bleep Do We Know? Mm-hmm. That was very sort of impactful and, and it was you never could have got me into the spiritual stuff without the, the quantum physics end of it being introduced at the same, at the same time. Yes. Otherwise, I don't, I got no time for that WOOWOO stuff or Oh, this quantum, quantum physics sort of understanding of consciousness and how the universe works and the, and the hologram and the matrix and all that stuff. I'm totally with you. My analytical brain could, could take that and, and so the spiritual stuff, you know, comes, comes in like a Trojan because now it all makes sense right now. Now it all makes sense for the analytical mind, you know, and. And that's how I first got, got into that. And you know, Dov taught his workshops of self-development and dealing with the ego and, and authentic selves and all of that from he called it quantum meta psychology from the intersection of metaphysics, quantum physics and, and psychology. And I, I, I ate that stuff up and, and really embraced it and started to work with it. And as I did so I, you know, my income went up, my relationships improved. I started to recognize all these wonderful benefits for that. And after about eight months, and I'd done sort of pretty much all the different workshops, the, my Australian friend Damien, who who'd introduced us, and you know, it's my birthday and he gives me an envelope for my birthday. And I opened up and it's a gift certificate. And it's a gift certificate for a one-on-one. Counseling, introductory counseling session with Do and I go, great. Who doesn't want therapy for their birthday? Right. You know?

Robin: 46:15

Right. Keep sorry. Some people call that a clue. Others just throw it

Tony: 46:22

out. So I, I, I go and I sit down, you know, with Dove and I'm in his office and we've got an hour and, and you know, it's engaging in small talk and, you know, and I tell him why I'm angry at my dad and angry at my mom and, and, you know, all, all of these things. And, and I pause and I'm, I go, do I tell'em to rest? Do I tell'em about being a neo-Nazi and a Holocaust denier and, and being involved in area nations and the violence and all of that? Because in my experience, when people had learned about my past, it was the end of the relationship. Right? In fact, when people had learned about my past, it was more than once where it was the end of an entire social circle, right? Just like that. It's gone. You know, grab your coat, leave the, leave the house, and leave the party, and never to see those friends again. Right? And I accepted that as the price to I to pay for, you know, all of the toxic things that I had I had done. So I really didn't want to tell him because I, you know, that was about 10 years older than me. He's he's from Manchester. I'm originally from around Liverpool and we've bonded over Monty Python and, you know, quirky British humor and stuff like that. And, and this was a relationship I valued. I liked, you know, I, we, we got, we had a good rapport. I got along with him and considered him a, a friend, and I was terrified of losing this relationship. So I. I'm stirring into the carpet as if, as if the pattern in the carpet's gonna give me some gem of wisdom as to what to do next. And he's like, come on mate, just tell me. It's whatever you gotta say. I can see you got something to say. Just let it out. It's okay. And I look at another aspect of the carpet and a different part of the pattern, and hopefully it's gonna give me a gem of wisdom, which, which predictably didn't. And he goes, mate, it's okay. You look like you wanna to swallowed three golf balls. Just let it out. And I, I, I froze for a minute, and then in this sort of great leap of vulnerability, just opened up the floodgates and started to tell'em everything. And I'm, I'm still looking at the carpet, you know, not wanting to look him in the eye. And you know, and I, and I look up and as I'm telling him this stuff and, you know, he's starting to smile. And I go, what's so funny? Here I am, you know, here I'm my first counseling session burying my soul. And, and you're laughing at me like, what's so funny? And. And, and, and the more he smiles, the more I'm getting annoyed. And, and he still, he keeps smiling. And I go, what's funny? And he leans in with a good big adrenal face and he goes, you know, I was born Jewish, right? I'm like, of course, the irony on it. And I go back in my, my chair and, and my, he says to me, that's who you, that's what you did. That's not who you are. Right? I see you. I see little Tony. And with that, I started bawling. You know, my cheeks had been filled with shame because here's this man who loves me, loves my family, wants to help me, wants to heal me. And here I am, knowing that I once advocated for the annihilation of him and his people. And as I'm sobbing with what he, you know, the gift of his words that he just given me. And I thought to myself, If this man can learn to love me, certainly I could learn to love myself. And that began this magnificent journey towards all the pain, all the wounds all the shame that I'd been running away from my, my entire life. And from, I think by the time we'd done most of the work together, it was probably a thousand hours of one-on-one and workshops and group counseling and, and, and stuff like that. And I wouldn't be here, sitting here today if it wasn't for the tremendous work. Cuz it wasn't, it wasn't easy. And then there was a lot of times where I needed a, a kick in the past to, to keep going and, you know to, to face the, the pain. But my God, is it a, a rewarding journey? It's not fun at the time, right? It's not fun to go into the basement of your psyche and. Be shoveling all the poop out. But when it's all done and it's, it's much cleaner than it was before, it's, it's it's, it's a much better place to be. And as I did all that work, as I got reconnected to who Little Tony was and, and and through the journeys coming back into integrity and alignment with the core essence of who I came into the world to be, my life became easier. My life became more and more in, in flow. And I, if I think back to the, the days that I spent in those, those movements, I couldn't have been more opposite to the essence of little Tony. And, and the more op in that opposite place that I was, the more out of alignment I was for that, the harder my life was. Things were hard, would break down, or a window would get smashed. There was all these things that were just constantly going wrong. And the drama and the anger and the like, it was, it was the most tiring. It takes so much energy and so much drama and being that angry all the time. And as I just work to bring my life back in, and this journey of becoming, it's, it never ends. It's, I'm not saying that, you know, I'm, I'm in a hundred percent alignment but I'm much more aligned than I was when I was back then. And there's always another layer of the onion to, to unpeel. But as I, as I did, that life becomes easier and, and, and flow and, and great things just, just happen. It's, I think as a, as a human being, it's, it's one of the most, it's one of the most difficult, but one of the most re rewarding journeys that we can take. And it takes great, it takes great courage to go and face our demons and to face our pain and to face our wounds and, and to, to heal that. But it's, it's such an incredibly rewarding journey. What a

Robin: 52:22

tremendous amount of beautiful people that gave you amazing gifts throughout your life. It, it's really profound by myself. And believe it or not, I, I'm looking at the spark that caused the entire thing, and that's part of the gift. I mean, you are saving people today because your father was who he was. Isn't that a strange widow universe works.

Tony: 52:47

Absolutely. Absolutely. And then somebody, you know, I get asked this a lot when I, when I, you know, talk in front of people and it's like, you know, do you regret anything that that's happened to you or you regret anything that you've done? And, and you know, there's sort of two layers to that. Sure. That answer. The first one is there's individuals that I harmed that I wish I could take it back. I can't. I deeply regret the things I said and did to those individuals. But at a sort of more meta level if I just had this perfect life and came to talk to you about radical compassion and. Forgiveness, you know, like, why should I listen to this guy? Right. Who cares? Right. But having a, you know, the, this journey through what my mom calls, you know, you had the journey through the dark woods, right? To come out the other side. It's that contrast between where I was and where I am now. That creates the, it makes the story interesting. And, and I couldn't, you know, I wouldn't be here having this conversation with you and your audience if I hadn't done that journey through the dark woods. And so for that level, for that, that more meta level it, I'm able to transform that lead into gold. So I'm, I'm, you know, an alchemist in that way, but I, in that level, I don't regret it was a necessary part of the journey to bring me to this level of understanding.

Robin: 54:19

Today. Absolutely. And so with that, we're gonna jump a bunch of years here. So we had the, the life transformation truly took hold those years ago with Dove, where we started letting go of the hate, connecting with ourselves, starting to love ourselves and letting go of that shame. So tell me about the Cure for Hate. What are we doing today with it all?

Tony: 54:40

So after that period of time with Dov and all the, all the counseling he says, like, you, you gotta tell your story. And I've got this budding, you know, early, having a lot of success in this financial services industry career. And I'm like terrified to go public with all this stuff cause I don't wanna blow that out. Right? But eventually it got to the point where I was like, I, I can't keep this inside. I have to, to do that. And so in 2010 I co-founded an organization called Life After Hate. And with that organization we helped get people out of, out of hate group. So the first. Section of the, of the journey was, I mean, getting out of the movement. Next is healing the shame and the wounds that made the, those choices seem reasonable in the first place. Once I'd done enough of that healing work, then it was, I was able to go back to help people who are where I once was. And so that, that was a decade of my life that I put to helping get people out of hate groups, on undoing the harm, some of the harm that I had, that I had created. And that took me to 2019. In 2018, I had the opportunity to visit Auschwitz and spent 15 hours over two days, one-on-one with a guide, which we, which we documented. And then, and that was a profoundly impactful thing coming from a person who had been a very articulate Holocaust and Iron Deeply moving. And you know, it's one thing to look at data in abstraction. And, and you can look, you can pinpoint contradictions of data and make up all kinds of arguments why you think maybe it didn't happen, or why people didn't land on the moon, or whatever conspiracy theory you want to, you want to look at. There's always little kernels of truth inside the great lie. But going to Auschwitz and walking on that ground and spending time there, energy doesn't lie. And I was deeply moved by it. It wasn't that I wanted to go and I wanted to go and feel Auschwitz because every thought I'd had about Auschwitz in my previous life was devoid of feeling. I wasn't it wasn't possible for me to feel, and I wanted to go there, and I was deeply moved, you know, in the rooms with the artifacts, whether it be the, the room with the suitcases and I j I was just overcome with a feeling of dread and hopelessness. That room in particular, I just felt dread and hopelessness and I thought about. You know, those people getting off the train at the last stop and realizing, oh man, this, this is not resettlement to the east. Right? The most powerful room for me was the room with 30,000 women's hair, long hair, short hair, cur hair, hair still in ponytails that I was just overcome. I should for half an hour, just sat there in a feeling of nausea and disgusted and, and was able to connect that to my own activities and feel a deep, healthy, really at the, at a core level. Shame about you know, sure I had an intellectual shame around the, the things that I had done, but it really was a powerfully moving deep, deep visceral feeling that I, that was, I think, incredibly necessary for me to experience. And so the. You know, the, with within a year or so, I, I'd left Life After Hate to focus on the documentary that we've made around that experience. And that's what I've been doing since December, 2019. And, you know, this third leg of my journey really is about going back to the communities that I had harmed in atonement, in reconciliation, in, in an attempt to foster healing and, and undoing again the, the harms that I had, that I had done. So first I had to heal myself. Then I had to help others like me heal. And then now it's going back to those communities. And in the Jewish tradition they have a word and it's centered around their high holy days in September. And it's Hebrew war is called Chuva, and it means return, and it means to return to God on our fellow man. Through repentance for our wrongs and acts of acts of repentance. And I've learned a lot about the, the Jewish tradition on forgiveness and atonement and such. So this film on this project is my Cuba to the Jewish people and other people that I harmed. But sure, one community in this world that I've harmed the most that was the focal point of my rage, my anger, my Audi ideology, my propaganda, my lies. It's the Jewish people. And, and so that's this next leg of a, of a journey and, and to try and not that I haven't perfectly, but to inspire others to go on their own personal journey of, of atonement reconciliation and, and, and healing. And, and you know, there's a lot of talk about atonement reconciliation, but there's not a lot of examples of what healthy, healthy atonement looks like. It's a

Robin: 59:46

perfect place to start wrapping us up here. And that is, what are a few things people could start doing today that you recommend to start letting go of that hate for themselves maybe, and maybe for those around them.

Tony: 59:59

Well, I think I, I think we incorporate three things into our lives. Curiosity. We've become, not just curiosity, we've become curious about ourselves. Right? Who are we? Why do, why are we like this? Why do I feel this way? You know we c curiosity about who we are and how we got to where we are. And that was an important part of my journey. Curious about the other, you know, most people I know in hate groups have never met they've never met a Muslim yet. They hate, right, right. You know, we. We, what we believe about other people we've often made up and is not any real basis. And when we, when we can be curious about the other, we can connect to them at a human, human level, and the, and the, the walls can come down. So curiosity is a huge, huge impact. Compassion, I think is and I, I talk in my book about radical compassion, and there's three aspects to radical compassion. Number one, our practice of compassion must take us beyond our comfort zones. The problems in this world are not gonna be solved from inside our comfort zone. So we want to change and impact the world. We have to do it from outside of our comfort zone. And that means try an act of kindness. You know, and someone who you don't feel deserves. It's someone who you don't approve of, you know? Someone you feel you were in judgment of and, and see how that makes you feel and see how, pay attention to how it makes them feel. But pay attention to how it makes you feel. It's can be, be profound, I think. Our practice of compassion must have a, a social activist element. You know, compassion is alleviating the suffering of another. We must also seek to change the environment or the society which supports it contributes to that suffering as well. So we, we should add a social activist component to our practice of compassion. And that journey inwards. You know, in order to have compassion from others, we must mine it from within ourselves. If we don't have compassion for ourselves, we can't give it to others. We don't have anything to give. So we have to mine it for our, for ourselves. And that journey inwards is one of the most courageous things a human being can do. And, and to take that journey inwards. And you know, as we develop that compassion and love and acceptance for ourselves and all of our perceived flaws we become more accepting of others in the flaws, in others. And, and in order, for example, for me, it wasn't through examining my own childhood that I could have any understanding of, of what impact my father's childhood might have had, right? That took me to a place of peace in that that relationship, we mis minded in ourselves. Those three things are, I call the, the three Cs. That's courage, compassion, and curiosity. And I think if we incorporate the three Cs in, into, into our lives and inspire others through the three Cs, because as human beings, we have this incredible ability to inspire others. For better or for worse, I spent many inspiring people for worse. We can change the world and it's not grandiose acts or you, you have to do something which puts your life at, at, at risk. It's who we choose to be in every moment of every day is what inspires the people around us and what is gonna make a difference in, in how this world is. So it's, we become conscious of every moment in our actions and our choices in every moment. And we incorporate the three Cs of curiosity, courage, and compassion into those actions and choices. We can make a difference and impact the world in them in ways we can't even imagine.

Robin: 1:03:37

Tony, I can't thank you enough for being on the journey that you were on and sharing it with us so that. We don't have to go on that same journey cuz that was not an easy journey that you're still on, that we're all still on. Is there anything I didn't ask you that you wanted to share that I was a bad host and forgot to ask you before we sign

Tony: 1:03:53

off? No, I think we, I think we covered quite a bit. I think a lot. It was, I really enjoyed the interview.

Robin: 1:04:00

Me too. Tony, where can people go to find out more about you and, and really embrace how to overcome hate around them and inside themselves?

Tony: 1:04:10

You can check out my book available on Amazon. That's the Cure For Hate. A former white supremacist journey from violent extremism to radical compassion. You can find me at the cure for hate.com. You can email, email me at tony the cure for hate.com. And if you want to check out our documentary film that is just hitting the festival circuit as we speak that you can find that at the Cure for hate film.com. And it's also. On Facebook and Instagram and all of your awesome

Robin: 1:04:39

regular social media. Thanks, and it's all in the show notes folks. Tony, I can't thank you enough and I can't thank dove enough for bringing us all together into this magnificent world together. So Tony, thanks again for coming

Tony: 1:04:49

on and keep doing the great work you're doing and thank you.

Robin: 1:04:52

Thank you for tuning into another episode of Forged By Trust. Remember, if you want to forge trust, it's not how you make people feel about you that matters. It's how you make them feel about themselves. If you're interested in more information about how it can help you forge your own trust, building communication, interpersonal strategies, as your speaker, coach, or as a trusted advisor for you or your organization, please visit my website@www.peopleformula.com. I'm looking forward to sharing my next Forged by Trust episode with you. Next week we chat with the world renowned Neil Degrass Tyson about his starry messages.