The Secret World of Corporate Spies w/ Robert Kerbeck

🤔 The Secret World of Corporate Spies is often filled with Stress, Anxiety, and Lies.  But, when you stop deceiving yourself and others you can begin to live your best life. Therefore, tune into this captivating episode with best-selling author, actor, and Corporate Spy Robert Kerbeck and Uncover the Courage to Live the Life You choose, not the one Dictated by Others.  

 
🌟 What We Discuss with Robert:

👉 ⁃       Behavior Improvisation and Using Deep Empathy

👉 ⁃       The Techniques of a Ruse

👉 ⁃       Listening as the Greatest Tool

👉 ⁃       Stopping the Lies to Yourself

👉 ⁃       Take the Life Journey you Want to Take; Not What Others Tell You To

👉 ⁃       We Are All the Same

👉 ⁃       Forging Trust from George Clooney, to OJ, to the boardroom

👉 ⁃       A Life Lesson from Yoko Ono

🌟 About Robert:

Robert Kerbeck is the founder of the Malibu Writers Circle and a three-time Pushcart Prize nominee. His first-person account of the Woolsey Fire was read by over a million people as an Op-Ed for the Los Angeles Times. Based on that essay, his debut book, Malibu Burning: won numerous awards and accolades.

Robert's essays and short stories have been featured in numerous magazines and literary journals. A lifetime member of The Actors Studio, Robert has worked extensively in theater, film, and television, appearing in lead roles in major shows and earning several awards. His latest memoir, RU$E: Lying the American Dream from Hollywood to Wall Street is a thrilling look into his career as a secret corporate spy. A graduate of the University of Pennsylvania, Robert resides in Malibu. 

🙏 Thanks, Robert! Reach out, connect, and follow Robert:

👉  https://www.linkedin.com/in/robert-kerbeck-12aa7a11/

👉 https://www.instagram.com/robertkerbeck/?hl=en

👉 http://robertkerbeck.com

🌟 Resources Mentioned in the Podcast: 

👉 -       “Ruse: Ruse: Lying the American Dream from Hollywood to Wall Street”

Pre-Order my Latest Book: "Unbreakable Alliances: A Spy Recruiters Authoritative Guide to Cultivating Powerful & Lasting Connections" HERE

Unlocking the Power of Trust: Keynote Speaker Robin Dreeke Shares Secrets to Creating Allies - Robin is the former Chief of the FBI's Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program. With over 30 years of experience in recruiting spies and building trust, Robin is the world-renowned speaker you need. Don't miss out on the opportunity to learn from a true expert. Contact us now to book your event! Click HERE to book a time to chat.

🤔 Take Robin's FREE YouTube Keys to Communication Online Course HERE.

😃 Check out Robin's Speaking, and Training Services HERE.

Transcript

Robert: 0:04

You know, I tell people what I've learned more than anything else is take the journey you want to take. Not the journey your parents want you to take, not the journey your spouse wants you to take. Not the journey your boss wants you to take, the journey you want to take, because it's your life.

Robin: 0:19

The secret world of spies is often filled with stress, anxiety, and lies. But when you stop deceiving yourself and others, you can begin to live your best life. Therefore, tune into this captivating episode with bestselling author, actor, and corporate spy of Robert Kerbeck, and uncover the courage to live the life you choose. Not the one dictated by others. Hey everyone. Welcome to the Forge by Trust podcast. I'm your host, Robin Dreeke, professional speaker, executive coach, former US Marine spy recruiter, bestselling author, and you're trust and communication expert. Coming up next on the Forge By Trust podcast.

Robert: 0:49

Because then I go to New York, I need a survival job, and who stumbles into a career as a corporate spy, but that's what I

Robin: 0:55

did.

Robert: 0:56

You know, being a corporate spy, you have to have kind of the ability to improvise and kind of change on the fly. And I'm here to tell you 45 minutes, 45 minutes, I can find out anything I want about pretty much any company on the planet. 45 minutes. That's all I need. Having to explain something for which there is really no explanation, right? Right. For which there really is no rationalization. There is no justification. What I was doing was dishonest. Right. Right. It was not honest. And so that was the moment where I was like, man, I gotta get out of this.

Robin: 1:33

The Forged By Trust podcast is a show where we explore the essential skill of forging trust for building an innovative culture and exceptional leadership. Join us as we delve into the behavior, skills and communication techniques required for success and learn from the best in the industry. Our guests include spies, spy recruiters, master interrogators, bestselling authors, thought leaders, and innovators who will share their insights on building teams, partnerships, and exceptional leadership by 4G Trust. As your host, a global behavior expert and master spy recruiter, I will guide you through the process of building authentic connections based on trust. Stop settling for less and learn how to master communication skills you need to move beyond transactional relationships and into mutually beneficial collaboration and partnerships. Today's episode, the Secret World of Corporate Spies is with the award-winning author and actor Robert Kerbeck. Robert is the founder of the Malibu Writer Circle and three time Push Cart prize nominee. His first person account of the Woosley Fire. Was read by over a million people as an op-ed for the Los Angeles Times. Based on that essay, his debut book, Malibu Burning won numerous awards and accolades. Roberts essays and short stories have been featured in numerous magazines and literary journals. A lifetime member of the Actor Studio. Robert has worked extensively in theater, film, and television, appearing in lead roles in major shows, and earning several awards. His last memoir, ruse Lying, the American Dream from Hollywood to Wall Street is a thrilling look into his career as a secret. Corporate Spy, a graduate of the University of Pennsylvania. Robert resides in Malibu, California. During the episode today, we talk about behavior, improvisation, and using deep empathy. The techniques of a ruse, listening as the greatest tool, stopping the lives to yourself, taking the life journey you wanna take, not what others tell you to. We are all the same. Forging trust from George Clooney to OJ to the Boardroom in a Life lesson from Yoko Oho. Hey Robert, welcome to Forge by Trust. I cannot thank you enough for coming on and sharing your life's most amazing

Robert: 3:34

journey. Well, thank you Robin. I'm excited to be here.

Robin: 3:38

Yeah, and and what an intriguing journey It is too. A lot of parallels in our lives, and you were this amazing corporate spy. We're gonna get that into a second, and we were just talking to pre-show a second ago and people are gonna learn in a few minutes that you were, you know, put the IQ side aside because your level of IQ to do what you had to do had to be exceptionally high. But you, with the people you bumped into throughout the course of your acting career and then your corporate espionage career, it's like Forrest Gump. I mean, you are literally bumping into amazing people

Robert: 4:11

at.

Robin: 4:12

Really right before they either hit a spark and hit a flow in their lives or, or at eent is really pretty profound. But that kind of goes towards the title this episode, which is a secret world of corporate spies based on your book that I just finished called Ruse, which is really an amazing look at something not a lot of people know. And that is the world of corporate spying, which required you to do a lot of interacting in unhealthy ways with people to elicit information that they might not most times even know they're giving up. But everything in life starts with a journey, and I don't think many people grow up saying, like, even my own case, I, I wanna be a spy recruiter. Most people don't grow up, say, Hey, I can't wait to be a corporate espionage spy. So Robert, where's that journey begin? How'd

Robert: 5:02

that all happen? Well first off, this is already my favorite podcast because you told me that I have a high iq. So you know, there you go. You had me, you had me at High iq. Okay. Yeah, you know I grew up in Philadelphia. The Kerbeck name is very, very well known in the automobile business. My great-grandfather sold horse carriages before automobiles were invented. He became one of the first car dealers in Philadelphia. My grandfather took over that dealership, my father took over that dealership I was supposed to take over. That dealership stop. I'm the oldest one. And

Robin: 5:37

I'm gonna stop right there, because already the, the, the curiosity just spiking. You know, there seems to be this passion in your, in your lineage for things that move on, on wheels. And you didn't cover this in the book. And I'm curious, what do you think your, your grandfathers and your father's passion for automobiles came from? And also kind of maybe segue into their ability to, to really get into sales? Any idea?

Robert: 6:02

Yeah. You know, it's a great question. I think that, you know, my, the name Kerbeck was Kerian, it's Armenian, right? I, of course, I don't look particularly Armenian. But I think, you know, my ancestors escaped the massacres and the genocide that was perpetrated by the Turks. And you know, when you come to a new country, when you've basically escaped with your lives you know, you, I think your, your, your senses are very sharp, right, in terms of survival. And so I think that there's something about that survival thing that my great-grandfather's instincts were really looking for, how am I gonna provide for my family? How am I going to make it in this country where I don't speak the language where there's, you know, there's always prejudice against new immigrants. And you know, one of the reasons I think he changed his name from Quebec and to Kerbeck is Kerbeck sounds very German. Philadelphia back in the day was a very German city. And so the name I think, you know, it just sounded German so he could assimilate better. And I believe that, you know, he saw the writing on the wall, you know, he was a smart guy. And, and you know, one of the things I talk about in the book is, you know, being a corporate spy, you have to have kind of the ability to improvise and kind of change on the fly. And I think my great-grandfather said, Hey, wait a second. These, this is the future. And so he got in on the ground floor. You know, he literally, you know, one of the first guys he talked to about getting a dealership was Henry Ford, right?

Robin: 7:32

That's it. It's pretty remarkable that he had that kind of foresight. All right, so we have this father, we have this grandfather, we have this car business. What did you aspire that you think you were gonna do when you were young? You know, say elementary school, middle school? What was the

Robert: 7:46

expectation? Yeah. You know, I, I think maybe I thought maybe I'd go, you know, to law school and maybe I'd go into politics, you know you know, when you're a young person, you, you, you have ideas, but you, you haven't done the legwork, you haven't done the hard work, right. You know, to know if that's a possibility or not. And, but then I got into college. I, you know went to the University of Pennsylvania, which is a great school, but I was paying for it myself. And so the first couple of years I was just working basically a full-time job while going to school full-time. So I wasn't having a lot of fun in college. I certainly wasn't dating. I had no money. And so at a certain point I got to be an RA in one of the dorms. And then they, you know, give you free room and board. They, they pay for your food, they give you a little stipend, and, and all of a sudden I could go and do the typical things that kids do in college. And I really wanted to meet, be quite frank, I really wanted to meet pretty young women, right? And I said to myself, where am I gonna meet, you know, pretty young women. And somebody said to me, the theater. And they were right. And so I went and auditioned for a play. I had never really thought about being an actor and the next thing I knew, I, not only did I fall in love with a young woman but I fell in love with acting and I fell in love with the theater. And, you know, you come from a background, your family's involved in the theater, so you kind of get that love you know, that people have for the theater. And and so I was doing a lot of acting at Penn and, and big plays and very successful. But when I graduated, I didn't have the guts to kind of move to New York, cuz it seemed insane. I didn't know anybody that had been an actor. I didn't have any connections. You know, I, you know, there was nobody, you know, nobody to guide me. And so I went to work for my dad in the car business. Right.

Robin: 9:19

One sec. I wanna back up again. You did something that was really pretty interesting. I think. I was wondering if it had any kind of impact on you with understanding human beings. You were an ra, RAs are, that can be a really challenging position because you're dealing with people in problem solving. Any anything that really stuck out to your time as being an RA team by any chance?

Robert: 9:40

Yeah, I had a great time being an ra. It was wonderful. I never had any problems with the, the kids on my floor. When I say kids, you know, I was a junior, they were freshman, right? I never had any problems with them, and I'm friends with many of those people today, you know, so, you know, I, I, I really recommend that, you know, if you're a parent out there and you're listening and you have you, you know, a kid going to school or, you know, recommend you know, being an ra, it's a great experience. That's really

Robin: 10:04

interesting too. You're still friends with these people back from college when you were an ra, what made you so likable to them, do you think? Why? What did they see in

Robert: 10:13

you? You know, I, I remember doing something that they teased me about now is that I wrote each kid a personal letter to introduce myself. That summer I was hitchhiking across America and you know, and I would be on a boss or I'd be in somebody's car or whatever the heck. And I would write, you know, these letters on, on Penn stationary, which I had purchased at the gifts, the gift store before I left town. And I sent everybody a letter, you know, and and like I said, a lot of the kids tease me now, you know, cuz at the time they thought it was kind of weird. But now of course they, they really appreciated that, you know? And so there was something about that that kind of, I think, bonded us before we even knew each other. That's huge.

Robin: 10:55

I mean, who does that? First of all, you hitchhiked across America. Yeah. What'd we

Robert: 11:01

do that for? That's an experience. Yeah. You know, it's funny. I wouldn't recommend it Uhuh. I think, I think I would recommend being a corporate spy ahead of hitchhiking across America. And it's funny because I think this, one of the summers when I was in college, I did the same thing in Europe, and the experience in Europe was far more pleasurable than the experience in America. There is something about America being out on the road by yourself that is frightening. It is scary. You know, you, you, the, the level of trust you know, it was, it was not the same in Europe. I never felt any of those fears. What kept you

Robin: 11:35

going?

Robert: 11:36

Well, you know, you're a, you're a young person, you're traveling by yourself. You go into places you've never been before. You don't know anybody in the town. Right. You don't have a lot of money, you know, so it doesn't sound like a lot of fun. Right. But but there were moments that, that it, it was a lot of fun. But I also had a couple of situations that were scary, you know, because you were an outsider and people either, you know, are suspicious of outsiders or they look, or they're looking to take advantage of an outsider. Right.

Robin: 12:02

And what was different with when you had decided to go across Europe with it?

Robert: 12:06

You know, I don't know. I mean, maybe it was because ma mainly it was on trains versus buses or hitchhiking. And so, you know, and also I think because you were on a train. It was easier to connect with other young people that were doing the same thing. You know, when I was going in America on buses and hitchhiking, I didn't see a lot of people doing what I was doing so that you were alone. I was alone most of the time. Whereas in Europe, you're, you're, there're, there're people everywhere, backpacking like that. So you're meeting people all the time. So it just, it became a lot more

Robin: 12:38

fun. You know, deprivation gives us great insights into ourselves and it forces us to innovate many times. Any profound ahas while you're doing the one across America.

Robert: 12:49

Well, I mean, I think you're right. You learn, I learned the most, and I think most people learn the most from failure, right? From adversity. You know, when things aren't going your way, when things don't work out, that's when you learn like, oh, you know what, I'm not gonna do that again. I'm not gonna make that mistake again. Here's what I could have done differently. You know? So, you know, I don't know that there was any moment that that stood out, but but you know, it was one of those things I'm, you know, you're, you're glad you did it in the end, but I, you know, I, I wouldn't recommend hitchhiking across America. I, I wouldn't recommend hitchhiking across America by yourself. Okay. There's

Robin: 13:22

a good one. Good caveat in the last part of that, before I, I, I'm sorry I keep flushing this one aspect out cause it just came out of the blue. It was interesting. You did handwritten letters to the people that you were the RA for. What, what do you think compelled you to do that? That's really unusual for someone that age to be so outwardly focused and to go outta their way to really make these great connections.

Robert: 13:46

You know, I, I, I honestly, I don't know, and, and this is the first time I've spoken about this in many, many years, you know, it's one of those things I kind of forgot about. Right. You know, I mean, I, I think maybe some of it was boredom because, you know, again, you know, you're on a bus, you know, you're in somebody's car and you know, so you, you need things to do. You didn't have a phone back then that you could bury your head into. Right. But, but then again, I had purchased the stationary before I left, so I knew I was gonna do it before I was on the road. Right. So, so, you know, I don't know, I, I, I just thought, I, I think, I thought it would be nice for them to know me and know a little bit about me. You know cuz you know, they were, they were young kids coming to school and I knew that could be scary and, and so I was just basically, you know, welcoming them and, and giving them a little bit of a heads up about who I was and what I was into

Robin: 14:32

what a what a profound act of empathy. You were actually seeing the world through their eyes and what might make them feel safer and more comfortable. And the only reason why I was kind of flushing that out of it, because, g getting into the line of work that you're in, whether it's an acting or as a corporate spy, that's the ultimate form of empathy. What's the other person see? What do they experience life as? And you definitely are starting to some early reps in that area. All right, so, We, we've experienced the theater, it grabs us. Yeah. What's next?

Robert: 15:01

Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I, I was working for my dad cuz like I said, I didn't have the guts to move to New York. And I

Robin: 15:07

just, which is also another interesting thing. I don't have the guts in move to New York yet. I just had the guts to hike across in America.

Robert: 15:14

Yeah. Yeah. Which that, and that tells you how scary it is to be an artist. You know what I mean? Okay. Right. You know, because, you know, look artists, it, it's a difficult journey is, you know, and, and most artists, you know, don't make a lot of money, if any money following their art. Right. It is difficult, you know. And you know, my, here I had this whole setup where the Kerbeck name was known in Philadelphia. My father's dealership was established, you know, the, the placard on the front of the building said since 1899 I recently, I'm kind of into genealogy. I recently found an ad in a Philadelphia newspaper for the Kerbeck garage from 1911. Oh my gosh. That's so cool. Yeah, I know. It's amazing. So there was a lot of pressure on me to, to not only take over this business, but there was a lot of incentive because I was going to be successful. I was gonna have a nice life. I was gonna make good money. I was gonna. You know, you know, be, be known in the community, so to speak, you know? So to turn my back on that and move to New York was a big deal. It was a really big deal for my father. But I just, something about car sales, you know, it just didn't sit right with me. There was, you know, it's a lot of kind of trickery, you know, you're, you know, all sales. At the end of the day, you're trying to sell your product for as much money as you can sell it for, right. Which, so that you can make as much profit for yourself and for your company, right? So that's sales, you know, that's just the way it is. But there was something about it. It just kind of didn't feel right, which of course turns out to be pretty damn ironic, right? Evident. Yeah. Yeah. Because then I go to New York, I need a survival job, and who stumbles into a career as a corporate spy, but that's what I

Robin: 16:45

did. Hey, so let's talk about that. How did we stumble into the world as as a corporate spy, and what exactly is that? Matter of fact, reading your book, I got a better dose of exactly what that was. I've known a lot of social engineers over the course of my life because I've started seeing that, you know? Okay. There is a parallel between those worlds and this, and you were doing this before anyone even called it social engineering. So tell me about Yeah,

Robert: 17:09

yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah. Well, we called it Rosing, right? Right. Hence the title of the book, right. Yeah, you know, I only knew one person in New York. It was my college roommate's brother. He was a musician and trying to be an actor, and so he kind of, you know, agreed to show me the ropes. And one day he mentioned this job that he was doing, and then he kind of shut up right away about it. Like he'd been told, don't talk about this, don't tell anybody about this. But then he had kind of, You know, inadvertently said something and I said, whoa. Hey, hey, hey, you know, what's this job you got? You didn't tell me about this job. You know, I'm broke. I need a job. You know, I'm new in town. And so he sort of reluctant. And Robert,

Robin: 17:45

What years were this around? So give people a frame of reference.

Robert: 17:47

Yes. Late eighties. Late eighties, you know, and he, so he gets me a job. Doesn't tell me anything about it. I go to the Upper East Side and for your audience, you know, the Upper East Side's, kind of the wealthiest area of Manhattan, the old money area of Manhattan. And you know, go to a, a doorman building. You know, I was living in Hell's Kitchen in a cave with two other guys, you know. So all of a sudden, you know, I'm in this doorman building. I take the elevator up to the penthouse, this woman opens the door. I seem to remember that she had a cigarette and a martini, but maybe that's just the, the writer and me exaggerating slightly. Right. But she invites me in and it was one of the nicest apartments I've ever been in. Calling in an apartment really even doesn't do justice to it. It was, you know, a penthouse. It was gorgeous. And so right away I knew whatever this woman's business was, it was very lucrative. Right. And we have a strange interview. She doesn't ask me anything about my, my background. You know, my, my, my skills. The only thing she wants to talk about is why did I leave my father in the car business? And how did my father take that? Which really threw me off like she was asking about my personal relationship with my father. And you remember you answered by the way, I was

Robin: 18:57

just curious.

Robert: 18:59

I, I said, she said, how did he take you leaving the car business? I said, not well, you know, and I was very flummoxed cuz I was kind of like, you know, it sort of the seemed like it was gonna turn into a therapy session, you know? Right. But she was, you know, and you're, you're, you know, this is something you know a lot about, you know, which is, she was sort of interrogating me. You know, she was kind of doing a deep dive into my psyche because she knew what the job required. You know, I didn't, and so she knew the skills that were needed to be a successful corporate spy. I didn't. And so she was asking me these questions, which in retrospect, now I see why she was asking these questions, you know? And so yeah, so if I left, I, I, I, I kind of didn't think I was gonna get the job. And then my buddy called up and he said, you know, you're hired, but don't get too excited because no one is able to do this job. You know, cuz every actor in New York City is looking for a decent paying, flexible part-time job. You know, because you could do this job for two hours, go to an audition, come back and do it for three hours, go to an audition. You know, we live in an ear and hour where everybody works from home or many people work from home. But, you know, back in the day, nobody could work from home. Right? So to have a job as an actor where you could have flexible part-time and, and kind of work from home or, or from an office was a huge deal. What do you think

Robin: 20:18

she saw that she thought you'd be successful?

Robert: 20:21

Well, I think the car sales thing, you know, I think coming from a car, sales family, you know, and also from an entrepreneurial family, it's, it, you know, my dad was an automobile dealer. Right. Which is, which is different from a car salesman. In other words, he, you know, he was running a dealership, right? Right. So he had the car sales. Skill. Yes. But he also had the, you know, running a whole business, you know, and how do you, you know, how do you make sure that you're successful and you pay your bills? And, you know, my, my dad's big quote for money, which I think is the greatest advice ever, is Money coming in. Good money going out bad.

Robin: 20:58

You gotta keep it simple in life.

Robert: 21:00

I mean, that's, that's entrepreneur 1 0 1 right there, you know? Absolutely. If you're thinking about starting a business, Print that out and put that, make a banner and run it, you know, run it on the inside of your office door. That's good.

Robin: 21:14

All right. So she sees you, she hires you. What'd that entail? What it look like?

Robert: 21:18

Yeah, so then, you know, basically I go out to train. You know, she had this woman that was her trainer. And I still had no idea, you know, what we were doing. You know, we all know the Russians spy on the Chinese, the Chinese spy on us. But most people, including me at the time, had have no idea how much money corporations spend on spying every day to try to learn secrets about their top rivals. And what did you think

Robin: 21:43

gonna do what, did she explain

Robert: 21:44

what you were gonna do at that point? No. No, I had no idea. I thought it was some sort of telemarketing, you know, we were selling magazine subscriptions or Broadway. Tickets or some, you know, some sort of telemarketing, you know? Okay. And when I get in there, I learn that what we're going to do is call corporations and get people inside corporations to release private information secrets, you know, you know, basically anything that we want to know that our, that the, the, that their rival who's hired, the woman who had this spying firm has hired us to, to extract from these, from these companies.

Robin: 22:21

And typically, what were those things that they were asking you to get?

Robert: 22:25

So when we started out back in the day, the, the thing we always started with was the organizational chart, right? So, you know, now we live in an era where we have LinkedIn and you know, you can, you feel like you can find out who works where and all of that stuff. But you know, pre LinkedIn and LinkedIn really did not take off until after the crash of 2008. So LinkedIn really didn't start to get going strong until about 2009, right? So it's only just over 10 years that LinkedIn has really been a thing. But before that, there was no way for companies to know who worked at a firm, what they did, what team they were on, who ran the team. And of course the most important thing was who were the best people at that company, who were what we would call the rock stars, right? Right. And what we would do is we would learn the internal metrics that the firms use themselves. To rank their own employees. And that's something, again, your audience may not know. All corporations rank their employees. There is a metric that they use to rank their employees and we would find out what it was. And at every firm it would be different, you know how they ranked their employees, how they listed their employees. And we would find it out If it was a sales organization, we would get the, the rankings of the sales guys if they were traders. We would get the, the revenues and we would know the guy that had the highest revenues was the number one trader. If they were bankers, we would see what the size of their book of business was, how, how many assets they had under management. And that would enable, you know, then selling that information to their rivals. You know, when somebody goes in for a job interview, are they gonna tell you that on a team of 22, that they're ranked number 20? No. They're gonna go in and say, I'm number one on the team. I'm number two on the team. I'm number three on the team. Well, we would have. The proof we would have the rankings of the 20 guys or the men and women on the team. And so you could see who the top three people were. And so now you could literally go after stealing the top people rather than getting some mediocre person that is telling you that they're great. And so it re you know, you, I always go back to football as an analogy, you know Tom Brady, great quarterback. Well, what happened when Tom Brady left the New England Patriots and went to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers? Right? Tampa Bay Buccaneers won a Super Bowl. Right? Right. And that, that's the same thing in corporate America. They're looking to steal Tom Brady from the New England Patriots and bring'em over to their team and win a Super Bowl. And I'm here to tell you, corporate America is just as cutthroat, if not more cutthroat than professional

Robin: 24:51

sports. So what makes that illegal then? I think that's important for people to understand too. If, if it is.

Robert: 24:58

Well, great question. You know, we, when we first got the job, or a couple months into the job, we all of a sudden began to realize, whoa, you know, this is kind of dicey, you know, you know, is this illegal? And so we went and we met with an attorney and the attorney said

Robin: 25:13

that she made you pay a portion of, by the way Yes, I know. Was pretty pretty low on her part,

Robert: 25:18

but go ahead. It was pretty, it was pretty low on her part. Yeah. And the attorney said that what we did was in a gray area of the law. And then it, and then he, he elaborated a little further and he said, Hey, very dark gray area of the law. And you know, what he was basically saying is, This area is so unknown. You know, I mean, one of the reasons penguin Random House published ruse is they said, no, no spy has ever written a book about corporate spying. Like, you know, you, you're, you're giving us the inside scoop. We've never, ever seen it before. Right. And it was the same thing with the law. I think that, you know, they, you know, knock on wood, you know you know, we never got caught. You know, we, you know, we, we had a lot of close calls. Obviously they're detailed in the book where we were, you know, under the gun and, and, and had some pretty big, you know, agencies coming after us or considering coming after us. But I think that you know, it, it, it's illegal because you're, you're misrepresenting who you are. You're impersonating real people, and you're doing that to get information that you're getting paid for that has financial value. And so, yes, that is a crime, you know? Now you can say it's. On the scale of crimes, maybe you're gonna say it's not that big a deal. Maybe somebody else is gonna say it's a big deal, you know? Right. That's not for me to say, you know? I, I'm not proud of what I did. I think it's a hell of a crazy story and so people seem to really enjoy hearing about the story. But it's definitely not something I would recommend for people to do. Like

Robin: 26:47

across America by yourself. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. What did you actually do to ruse? You know, like, so people hear, all right, so I was a corporate spy thing. What did you actually have to do in order to be successful at that?

Robert: 27:00

Yeah. So, you know, at first, and I don't, I don't talk about this too much in the book, I don't think, but at, at first we actually went in person kind of undercover to do spying. But we very quickly found out that being on the phone, using the anonymity of the phone call, enabled us to get far more information than we could get in person. And so basically we stopped going out in person because first of all, it was much more dangerous. And we weren't getting as much. Information. We would go to a bar, we'd go to the US open to a box where we knew a bank was, had the bo you know, whatever. And we just weren't getting the, the, the information that you could get over the phone by pretending that you're somebody else in another office. Usually someone more senior, sometimes much more senior than the person you're calling. Right? And now that person's like, wow, boy, you know, I got a very senior executive on the phone. He's telling me he's having an emergency, there's a crisis and he needs my help. And boy, I better help cuz I wanna be on this cuz this guy's good side. And so now they're releasing information they're looking up information for you. They're calling other people to get information for you. Because they're what are, what is everybody in America taught in the corporate world, right. Be a good teammate. Right, right. You know, good corporate culture. So, you know, if you have an executive on the phone and they're in, you know, and they're telling you that they're in Washington DC meeting with the US regulators and there's a crisis, well, they put everything down and they go, okay, hey Bill. Hey, I'm here to help you. What do you need, buddy? And so we created all of these ploys where we would utilize corporate culture corporate training to our advantage.

Robin: 28:39

What were some of the things that is that as these people were getting more aware of, oh, oh we have a leak somewhere, it's actually costing us money, which they're changing their ability to defend against people like you, which then I imagine requires you to really innovate and create something new, which is constantly keeps you on your toes, and you are really good at that. Where do you think that ability for your innovation came from?

Robert: 29:07

You know, I think, again, you know, part of it was just in my d n a coming from a family, you know that escaped, you know, you know Two genocides. You know, I'm, you know, I'm part Jewish. My ancestors escaped the Holocaust. I'm part Armenian. My ancestors escape the Armenian genocide. You know, so there's something about that that's in the dna. Like, look, you know, I'm gonna f I'm gonna find a way to survive here. You know? Right. And then of course, coming, you know, from a, a car dealer, car sales background, then getting into acting and learning a lot about acting and improvisation. You know, one of the things we think about with actors is that they're good talkers, right? They have the gift of gab, which I certainly have been accused of having. But I think just as importantly, and even more importantly, is the ability to listen. Right? And I could hear on the phone in your voice, in your tone, in your silence, whether you were buying my. Ploy, what we call them, plos or my ruse. Right? I could hear it. If you were gonna go within and you were gonna tell me something, and if I could hear you weren't, and you started to voice objections, then what I would do is I weed a techniques where we would put you to sleep. Because what I don't want you to do is if you're questioning me, you don't believe that I am who I'm telling you I am. You're not gonna give me the information. I don't want you warning anybody else in the firm. So what we would do is we go, Hey, would it be easier for you if I sent you an email that had all of this? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That, yeah. I, yeah. Send me an email. Make sure it comes from the company email address. You know, cuz I, I, you know, I'm so, I don't mean to be giving you a hard time, but I need to know, this is real. I need to know, this is legitimate. No problem. I will send you an email. You'll have it within an hour. It'll explain. Okay. Well thanks so much. That'll make me feel better. And you know what, I got a lot on my plate right now. Worst case scenario, I'll have the email to you by the end of the day. Worst case, end of the day, I'm gonna try to get it to you right away, but worst case, okay? No, that's fine. Just as long as I have it, you know? And, and, and if I get crazy jammed up, you will have it on your desk first thing in the morning, I promise. First thing in the morning. I promise you'll have this. Okay, great. Thanks so much. Well, what am I doing there? Is that person ever gonna get that email? No, they're never gonna get that email. But I've bought myself the rest of today to find somebody else at the firm to tell me the information that I want, right? And I'm here to tell you 45 minutes, 45 minutes, I can find out anything I want about pretty much any company on the planet. 45 minutes. That's all I need. Wow. Because the weakest link in cybersecurity, in corporate security is always the human being. And I just need to find one person somewhere in the firm that is willing to talk to me, is willing to tell me stuff, is willing to look up stuff on the system, is willing to tell me how their systems work, what the architecture is. Is willing to, if they don't know something, go, oh, you know what? I don't know the answer to that, but, you know, I'm friends with so-and-so in this department. I, I think they'll know. Let me call over and ask them. So now I'm on hold while they're in a sense spying on my behalf because they believe that I am who I said, you know who, who I said I am.

Robin: 32:04

Right? So being able to do this so rapidly requires what some called tactical trust, strategic trust. Did you discover any sort of thread with human beings in general that enabled you to understand what they typically would need to have that kind of trust rapidly?

Robert: 32:27

Yeah, you know, I would always say, you know, People want to be your best friend. Right? And you know, like the two things we don't want to have in the world, you know, we wanna have friends and we don't wanna have enemies, right? And so I would play on those two things. So I would start off like, I'm gonna be your best friend. We're gonna be friends. This is gonna be great. We're gonna be telephone buddies. You're gonna love me, I'm gonna love you. You're gonna help me this time, but later on if you need something, I'm gonna help you. This is great, right? We love each other, right? Right. And if the person doesn't go for that and they're like not loving me, well now it's like, okay, you know what? Now I'm gonna use the corporate cud. You know, I'm telling you, I'm an executive vice president of compliance, or an executive vice president in legal, or executive vice president in tax, or executive vice president and Chief operating Officer, whoever. I'm saying I am. So now all of a sudden you're like, oh my God, you know, I've kind of rattled this guy's cage. He's asking me for this stuff, but he's a pretty senior guy, man, do I, do I really wanna make an enemy with this guy, this, this guy? Like, you know, he knows my boss's boss is boss's boss. Right? You know, like, man, I, I, you know, so you're getting them to think twice about that, right? And so that's something that we would always work is, you know, we're you, we're, we're your best friend, so, but don't turn us into your worst enemy, right?

Robin: 33:42

So we've got a good dose of this. But it is also because there is a great need, you know, It's you, you're working for someone who had this great look of affluence, and yet I don't think you were making all that much money. And what was the parallel world you actually was doing this for, to support? What were you trying to do at the

Robert: 34:03

time? I know it's pretty funny. You know, for a long time we were getting$8 an hour and at one point we had an assignment where we were researching the largest defense firms in the world. And we were obtaining secrets from people that had top secret clearance like they were giving us. They were releasing top secret information. And theoretically, if we had been, if I had been selling that information to the Russians or Chinese, I could have gone to jail as a spy for the rest of my life. But instead we were selling it to other defense contractors.$8 an hour.$8 an hour. But again, you know, we were young. You know, we were in our twenties and it was just a temporary job to support our acting career. And you know, as you know, cuz you, you listen to the book I was a working actor, you know, I was doing the lead in a play opposite a young James Gandini from The Sopranos. I did the lead in a play opposite of young Calista Flockhart, who's married to Harrison Ford. You know, I got a rave review in the New Yorker. I got a rave review in the New York Times. My picture was on the front page of the New York Times Sunday Arts and Leisure section. You know, so, you know, I wa it, you know, I was a, became a member of the actor studio. So the, all of these things were happening. This was just a survival job, you know, it was just to pay the bills. And of course, you know, as time went on, You know, my acting career kind of went up, up and up and then all of a sudden it kind of plateaued and then went the opposite direction and that was the moment where I really kind of dove deep into the world of corporate espionage. And my earnings, you know, went up like, you know, so rapidly. It, it blew me away to the point where I was make, I went from$8 an hour to 2 million a year is,

Robin: 35:40

Pretty dramatic increase, I would say par way on the parabolic curve. Let's talk about the acting career for a second. So you're making some really good inroads there. You're starting to show some success. You talked about a few of them. What do you think was the cause of that, those successes that you were having?

Robert: 35:57

You know, I mean, look, I, I loved acting. I was passionate about it, you know you know, I had a, I had a, a, a good look and I also had a bit of an edge. So, you know, I was able to play characters. You know I was kind of a leading man, but a leading man with an edge. And in some of those early reviews and, you know, you know, some of the, the papers I just mentioned, you know, they would compare me to John Malkovich or, you know Eric Roberts or, you know, one was even kind enough to compare me to Marlon Brando, which was pretty amazing. And And I loved it. You know, I just loved it and I was passionate about it. I was into it. I worked hard. I mean, I had an acting class on Saturday mornings, and so I never went out on Friday nights, like Friday night, every night I was preparing for the class, getting a good night's sleep, you know, not drinking, you know, not doing anything that, you know, maybe a normal 20 something year, year old would be doing on a Friday night. And I did that for years because, because, you know, I was really, you know, honing my craft, you know, and, and I wanted to, you know, to, to do, to do really good things. And and, and that all of that stuff got me to, you know, moved to la and then when I came to LA I started doing a lot of big TV shows in la you know, Melrose Place and N Y P D, blue and Chicago Hope and er, and Star Trek. And and, you know, it was, it was all going great. And I had a lot of crazy encounters that, you know, we, we can talk about.

Robin: 37:18

Yeah. I'm curious about a couple of those crazy encounters because I. I don't think that life is like, random things just happen and we create these situations cuz of who we are and, and how people want as part of their lives. And so just pick like one or two or three that were just kind of a little interesting because I, I got a whole bunch of'em too that I just think are pretty profound about that. You were right there, right as they're happening. Yeah.

Robert: 37:44

Yeah. Well, in the pre-call, like you said, you said there was a certain Forest Gump element to my encounters with super famous people. No, in the No doubt. Yeah. Yeah. And so, so one of them was, you know, I get brought onto this TV show called Sisters and I am brought on there to kill this character because the actor who's playing that character is about to move on to a new series. And the actor's name was George Clooney and he was You know, I was brought on to kill him and he, you know, we were working together and he says, Hey, do you know why you're, you're, you've been brought on this show to kill me? And I said, I said, of course I don't. And he said, well, you know, I got this new series called er, well, of course ER is not on the air. Nobody knows anything about er, George Clooney doesn't know anything about er. Indeed, he is incredibly depressed, and we're hanging out and he takes me over to the set of er and he's telling me that his career is ending. He's done six pilots. None of the pilots have been picked up. He feels like if they hire him for a pilot, he's the kiss of death. Like he's got like, you know, like a, you know, like a dark, you know, cloud over his head. And, you know, I'm listening to him and he's a couple years older than me and I'm like, man, this poor guy, he, you know, he's really depressed about his acting career. My career is going great. You know, because I, and of course George had no idea that that show was gonna make him the biggest star in the world. And he was never gonna look back, never gonna look back. But in that moment, before that show had aired, He thought his career was over, which is just such a fascinating, you know, kind of, you know, like, again, Forrest Gump moment. So

Robin: 39:13

what's fascinating though, even more so is he shared that with you. Yeah. What did he, why? What did he see? Why did he trust you to share these, you know, the darkness in him to you so, well, I think he was

Robert: 39:27

relatively stranger. He, he took me, we, you know, we were on the Warner Brothers lot, that's where sisters were shooting and. Er also was shooting on Warner Brothers and the set, er set was, was closed that day. So he, and he knew that, and he said, Hey, look, let me show you the set, you know, and he was saying, oh, this new series, Steven Spielberg's behind it, and Michael Crichton's behind it, and I'm really hopeful. And so he's showing me the set and he's very proud, you know, saying, look at this, you know, full on hospital set. And, you know, and of course the set was great. It was incredibly realistic. But you know, he was also saying, man, this is, he, this is my last shot. Like, you know, you know, like, this is number seven. If this pilot doesn't go, you know, this w I'll be oh, for seven. And and he, and, and that's what he started to share and he was telling me about all these other shows. And then he really felt like, you know, when a show hired him, that meant the show was doomed. You're

Robin: 40:19

definitely giving him something that he needed in order to open up.

Robert: 40:23

Yeah, maybe, you know, yeah, maybe,

Robin: 40:25

you know, and that kind of brings it to almost a, a, a very different personality, cuz I thought your encounter with OJ was also pretty quite profound timing and an encounter. You wanna share a little bit about that one too? Cuz again, I'm, I'm gonna be asking you the same type of question is like, what did he see when he saw you? Because people keep seeing this thread in you and I, it's amazing looking at the success that you've had because of your ability to do this thing called trust. So tell us a little bit about

Robert: 40:55

OJ. Yeah, I mean, you know, this is, you know, the OJ story is, you know, it's one of those things. It's, it's all true. But even now when I tell it sometimes I'm like, what? Cuz so many parts of it are just insane. But, you know, I was again, an actor and actors, especially young actors who were trying to work are not very picky about jobs. And one day my manager called me up and he said, look I got a job. It's in, you know, in an exercise video, it pays, you know, seven 50 a day, you know, da da da da da. They're gonna give you free sneakers. And I remember I was so happy about the free sneakers cuz my sneakers had holes in them. And so I was like I don't know, my manager's name was Bobby. I'm like, I don't know Bobby. I'm, I'm like, I'm the worst dancer in the history of mankind. Like, I, I, you know, I, I don't, I don't think I'm right for this. And he's like, no, there's no dancing. It's, it's an exercise video for men. It's OJ Simpson. And I said, OJ Simpson. I love OJ Simpson. My God. Like, you know, I grew up watching him. Frame of reference,

Robin: 41:49

what year was this?

Robert: 41:51

Around mid nineties. Yeah. I think 9 94. You know, 94. Right. I mean, to to to, to really timestamp it. This exercise video took place right before the murders, right? It was his last job before the murders. All right, keep going. Yeah. So so, you know, I, I show up onto the set, you know, I'm like, okay, it's an exercise video for Guy. We're, you know, I'm, I'm told we're gonna do pushups, pullups, we're gonna play some pickup basketball. It's gonna be for dudes. You know, you know, that was like the, the, the, that what he was gonna market it towards, right? And I show up to the set and it is a dance studio, and I'm introduced to a choreographer and they're these women that are also in the video. And I'm like, whoa. I thought we were like doing push. And, and, and the choreographer's like, okay, everybody line up. Here's what we're gonna do. And he goes, launches into this like, exercise routine, which was like a dance. Thing, kind of a dance aerobics thing. And you know, and I'm pathetic. I'm like, wait, I can't, I'm, you know, like, you know, twitching and cavorting and, you know, and the guy like, comes over to me, he is like, how, how are you? He like, what, what? You know? And he basically is gonna fire me right then and there on the spot. And OJ says, whoa, you can't, you can't get rid of Rob. Rob's dancing is so bad, it's making me look good. Rob stays. And it was so crazy because, you know, I didn't kind of consciously get this at the time, but now I know this rule number one in Hollywood. Make your star look good, right. And the, and my dancing was making OJ look good, cuz you know, I'm sure he was a little nervous about this video, you know? You know, he didn't wanna look like an idiot, you know? And, you know, they're the, and, and these women, their dancing was, you know, they were professional dancers. They were phenomenal. So, right. He needed another guy in there that was kind of lumbering stumbling. And so somehow that bonded us. And so the rest of the shoot, I think it was a three day shoot, you know, and you know, when you shoot these things, you're there at, you know, eight in the morning and you're there till eight at night, or whatever the heck, you know, so they're long days. And so, you know, you, you, you, you spend a lot of time and for some reason OJ just took a liking to me. And at one point he pulls me aside and he says, Hey Rob, you, you wanna see the video? For this pilot I just shot for N B C. It's called Navy Seals. I said Sure. And he takes the video and he pops it into a video cassette player cuz this is, you know, 1994. And and he begins to tell me the story of the show that he shot. And he's like, oh, oh, oh, this is my character. He is a knife expert. So his character in the pilot that he has just shot is a knife expert. Right, right. You, you can't make this stuff up, right? No, no. And you know, so he, you know, it just, you know, so he, you know, and, and so we're sitting there, we're talking, and all of a sudden I'm like, wow, you know, OJ likes me so much, he's gonna get me a part in like Navy Seals. Like, you know, I'm gonna get on his TV show now because we're like such buddies, you know? Right. Of course. You know, and then there was all this crazy stuff where he was sort of not sort of, he was sexually harassing a woman on the set in front of us, which, you know, unfortunately back in the nineties was all too common behavior. Right. With, you know, entitled Male Stars. And I pulled a woman aside and I offered to help her and I said, Hey, we can get the Screen Actors Guild down here and monitor the set. But, you know, I'm sure she was nervous to rock the boat, you know, she didn't want to get fired, she didn't want to get blackballed in Hollywood. Right. And so, you know, it was a really disturbing look at The behavior, which of course in the moment when I saw his attitude towards her, it didn't click. And of course, I didn't know who Nicole Brown Simpson was, but when the murders happened and Nicole Brown Simpson's face flashed up on the screen on the tv, I realized how much she resembled the female dancer in the exercise video. It was shocking. Yeah. And so here now in retrospect, I'm seeing him treating this woman the same way he was treating his ex-wife with the same level of disdain, the same level of of objectification. So it was a really just insane moment in time that I. Because people say, did you know that he was ca Well, of course I didn't know. But in retrospect, were all the signs there? Hell yes.

Robin: 46:03

Yeah. Wow. There's another one of those profound moments in life of just timing is just amazing. But again, it goes back to the, the theme here is that people just like you. Mm. I think that's what made you really successful in everything you're doing. So the acting career, I know you wish it could have been more, but as you've said in the book, it was good enough that you earned a retirement from the Guild because you did a lot of, you worked a lot. You were a regular actor. That's incredibly amazing and successful to be able to do that. But we decided by fate and fortune that that was ending. And so we then went full-time Rus. What'd that look like? Yeah. How'd that happen?

Robert: 46:46

You know, I think it was You know, I, I booked a call. I, I, you know, I had the George Clooney thing where I booked four pilots and none of the pilots went. So, you know, one of the things about, you know, getting to become kind of a name actor is you need something that propels you into the public's awareness. So, you know, so, so again, I started the field the way George Cooney had felt pre er like, man, this is just not meant to be, you know, and the ruse thing, corporations were. Throwing money at me. I mean, obviously, like I said, I went from$8 an hour to 2 million, and it happened pretty fast. Because corporations were so desperate for intelligence on their rivals, you know, what their plans were, what their strategies were, what their products were, who their top people were, you know, what they paid their people, you know, were they opening a new office? Were they closing offices? You know, anything and everything. That information was so valuable that corporations just started, you know, like proverbially throwing money at me. And, you know, it was a moment where I was like, wow, you know, I could be a broke actor for the rest of my life. You know, or I could take the money and run, you know, one of the reviews described what I did is shank the Man and rake in the bucks. And, and that's sort of what I did.

Robin: 48:01

How did, how did you sit with that? How did your family sit with that? I mean, this must be pretty challenging coming from seems like a really good, tight family, to then move into this area where we're going to do something not quite right. How did you rationalize

Robert: 48:15

that? Well, I think what you do is you, you do rationalize it. And so, you know, I rationalized it. At first I was only getting$8 an hour. I'm an actor. This is just temporary. Then I rationalized it. Well, you know, a lot of the information we're getting is helping people get better jobs, right? You know so, you know, if I put your name on my list and I put a star next to your name as one of the rock stars at that firm, now you're getting a phone call from some big executive recruiting firm to steal you away, right? How could that be a bad thing, right? Mm-hmm. These were all rationalizations, you know, and In the book, as you know, you know, I deal with, you know, you know, I have a lot of reckoning with the moral issues. And again, you know, I, I don't, you know, I'm not proud of what I did and I don't recommend this career. And I think for me, you know, the, the big light bulb moment, it was when my child heard me rousing on the phone one day and asked me about it. And that was the moment where, you know, you see the, you know, you see the love that your child has for you and you see the innocence in their eyes cuz they think you're the greatest thing ever at that moment in time. And, and then having to explain that, explain something for which there is really no explanation, right? Right. For which there really is no rationalization. There is no justification. You know, it's, what I was doing was dishonest. Right. Right. It was not honest. And so that was the moment where I was like, man, I gotta get out of this. I can't do this. And that was when I, I I really began to You know, actively scale it down. And then, and then obviously, you know, obviously I have not been rosing for quite some time because I wouldn't be a very smart spy if I wrote a book outing myself as a spy, and I continue to spy.

Robin: 49:54

All right, so we are, we're inspired to shift and reimagine ourselves again, which takes a lot of courage because, you're providing for a family one way and all of a sudden our own sense of self changes that, what kind of courage did that take to do that?

Robert: 50:13

Well, I think it, you know, it was It was a little less courage than just survival instinct because, you know, at one point I was so down that I, you know, I sat down one day and I wrote a suicide note. Now it wasn't me writing the suicide note, it was this kind of crazy character, this person that I had met that I always thought would be a great character in a story or a book. And I had been an English major before I got into acting. So the writing thing was something that I had done long, long time ago, right? And all of a sudden in this moment where I was so down, I wrote this peace. And something about in the piece, even though it was fiction, Something in, in the fiction was entirely true because I was in that dark place, right? And all of a sudden the light kind of, the light bulb went off. I read it to an actor friend of mine. He said, Hey, you know that that's really good. You should write a book about that character. So I did, and I wrote a novel. I wrote it in the notes program on my iPad, you know, no grammar, no spell check. I mean, it was, you know, and, and the book, quite frankly was pretty bad. It was pretty weak, but there was something in it that was completely true, and there was something in this character that was crazy and crazy fun and crazy interesting. And that all of a sudden, you know, made me go, you know what, maybe there's something here. You know? And, and so I started. Going to writing conferences, started taking writing classes, I started writing short stories. Cuz short stories are kind of a, a manageable way to write something. You know, you write a 300 page novel and it doesn't work. That's a lot of time and energy right? To, to put into something that kind of doesn't work. You can't get published, whatever short story, you can write 15, 20 pages and you can see if you can get it published. And if not, it's not that much time and energy. And, and to my surprise, I started getting all these short stories published. I got pretty much everyone I wrote published, and I wrote about 30 of them. And it began to give me the confidence, like, wow, you know what? And I started writing essays, getting published in magazines. And then I wrote my first book Malibu Burning, which is also non-fiction. And it's about the true story that my family we had a horrific wildfire in Los Angeles in Malibu a few years ago, burned down half the town. People died thousands of homes were lost, and we fought the fire and saved our house. 17 of 19 on our street, burned to the ground. And I La Times asked me to write an essay about that experience, which I did. A publisher read that essay, said, Hey, will you write a book about that fire? You know, wildfires have become not just a California issue, but a global issue, right. As the planet gets hotter and hotter, drier and drier. You know, we're seeing fires all over the world that the, you know, people can't even control the fire department. They, you know, they, they're just like, get out of the way. Right. And so I wrote this book, Malibu Burning, and the book did really well, and it, and I'm really grateful that the community was so happy that somebody told their stories. Right. You know a lot of people think everyone in Malibu is rich and famous. I'm here to tell you that is not the truth. Malibu is a very small town, 10,000 people, and the people that live on the land side of the Pacific Coast Highway that live up in the hills and the nooks and c crannies of the canyons, they are not. Wealthy, famous people. And unfortunately, almost all of the people that lost their homes were on the land side of the Pacific Coast Highway. Right. And so the book, you know, won a couple of national Book awards. I got a letter, a thank you letter from Governor Newsom for writing the book from La Mayor Garcetti, for writing the book. You know, a lot of big celebrities, Pierce Bron, Sam Elliot, you know, all kinds of great people were, you know, said nice things and thanked me and came out to events. And and so that was a really you know, great experience in terms of launching me into writing, like writing books, you know, and now I thought, and now my second book is obviously the Ruse book which just came out last year. And And that book's been doing really well too. And, and and it's in development for a TV series, which is really fun. Nice. You know, because I, I think Rus, you know, it's just a fun story. I mean, it's kind of a crazy story. It's a world nobody knows exists. Yeah. So I, I'm excited to see, to see what's gonna happen with that. So Robert

Robin: 54:24

Life is a, an arc, and it always starts like we did at the beginning of the inspiration that came from your grandfather, your father. And it does follow a thread throughout life, even regardless of the things we do to provide for ourselves and support our families and everything. But there is an arc and there is a thread after all you've been through and you've rise the place now. What do you think that thread and arc

Robert: 54:48

has been? You know, I tell people what I've learned more than anything else is take the journey you want to take. Right. Take the life journey you want to take, not the journey your parents want you to take, not the journey your spouse wants you to take. Not the journey your boss wants you to take, the journey you want to take, because it's your life. You're living it, you know? So, so, you know, go on the journey you want to go on.

Robin: 55:12

And what did you learn most from all these amazing interactions where people literally brought you into their lives? Yeah. You knocked on the door, but then they opened their door when you showed up. What did you learn most about people during the sink journey?

Robert: 55:28

Whew. Man, that's a great question. You know, I mean, what's cool is, you know, we're all, we're all the same, you know, we're all the same. You know, I, I had this, you know, crazy conversation with Yoko Ono. That was

Robin: 55:42

amazing. I know another, that was another far go mo moment in the book. Anyway, keep going. I'm

Robert: 55:48

sorry. That was crazy. Yeah, no. So I'm having this conversation with Yoko Ono while my father is on an operating table having major heart surgery. And I, you know, we won't go into how Yoko and I got on the phone. You have to read, read the book. It, it's

Robin: 56:01

a good moment in the book. Total coincidence.

Robert: 56:04

And Yoko asks me, you know, you know, what, what do you do? And I go, oh, you know, I'm an, I'm an actor. And she says, well, what kind of actor? And I, and just without thinking, I said the burned out kind cuz she got me right after these four pilots had not been picked up. And I was feeling like George Clooney, like it was over, you know? And she said, oh, the same thing happened to John. And I'm like, what? Like you, you, you're about to compare me to John Lennon and she goes into how down John was about the music business, you know, how low he was at a certain point, how he had given up on the music business, how he had given up on his artistic dreams, an artistic career. Right. And that's why he wrote the song, watching the Wheels. Right. You know, watching the Wheels go round and round. And I, I remember like, I'm like, oh my God, this woman is like comparing my little acting career to the career of arguably the greatest songwriter. Musical artist of all time, you know? And so my, my point in telling that story is not to compare myself to John Lennon, but is to just say We're all the same, right? We're all the same. John Lennon was down in the dumps. Was miserable, was depressed, didn't know if he wanted to make music again, didn't know if he cared, didn't know if anybody cared to hear his music again, right? But he picked himself up. He recorded that album. That album was fantastic. And he wrote some amazing songs. Unfortunately, he was murdered shortly, shortly thereafter. But the point being is that, you know, we all, we all the same. We're all gonna have these, these low moments and you know, we all should look at, you know, what John Lennon did in that moment and go, you know what? I'm gonna pick myself up. You know what I mean? I'm gonna pick myself up. I'm gonna get back to doing whatever it is I want to do, because that's the only way you're gonna get a little further down the road and get to do the things that you really want to do.

Robin: 58:02

No doubt. Robert, if you feared nothing in life, what do you think you'd do?

Robert: 58:08

If I feared nothing, oh my God, I would be a singer. I. Yeah. Ah, I would be a singer. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That, I mean, look, I, you know, that just rolls right off too. That's good. Yeah, it's, it's too easy because I can't sing at all and clearly I cannot dance at all, so, so those careers are not happening. But if I could have it happen to be able to be, to sing, oh, what a blessing that would be. That's awesome.

Robin: 58:32

Robert, what's something I should have asked you that you wanted to make sure you shared before we leave?

Robert: 58:37

I don't know. You know, I mean, if people are interested to learn more, they can go to my website. That's where I'm gonna, and that's

Robin: 58:42

the final question, is where can people go to find out more about you, to bring you into their lives and find out about your great projects and things that you're doing?

Robert: 58:49

You know, I, I steer people to my website. It's simple. It's just my name, Robert Kerbeck. K e r b e c k.com. Because you know, you can buy Ruse, you can buy Malibu, Bernie, you can see a lot of the short stories that I've written. You can also see the tra, you can also see the trailer for Ruse is up there, so you can get a sense,

Robin: 59:06

oh, I can wait. Look at that. I haven't looked at it yet. I can't wait. Yeah. Excellent. So, so excellent. Robert, I can't thank you enough for coming on, sharing this incredible life story, giving people a slight glimpse into a world that people don't know much about. So I can't thank you enough for having the courage to share that story and being a great inspiration for others to make great connections with human beings.

Robert: 59:28

No thank you, Robin.

Robin: 59:29

It was really a pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for tuning into another episode of Forged By Trust. Remember, if you want to forge trust, it's not how you make people feel about you that matters. It's how you make them feel about themselves. And if you're interested in more information about how it can help you forge your own trust, building communication, interpersonal strategies as a speaker. You're a coach or is a trusted advisor for you or your organization, visit me on my website, www.peopleformula.com. I'm looking forward to sharing my next Forge by Trust episode with you next week when we chat with the awe-inspiring author and coach Joshua Medcalf, as we discover your journey to greatness by first chopping wood and carrying water.