How to Work with (Almost) Anyone w/ Michael Bungay Stanier

🤔 We are often faced with Difficult People and Challenging Situations. But, knowing how to have a Healthy Conversation will make all the difference. Therefore, check out this compelling episode with world renown author of “The Coaching Habit”, Michael Bungay Stanier and Discover how You can Work with Almost Anyone.


🌟 What We Discuss with Michael:

👉 ⁃ How to start a Healthy Conversation
👉 ⁃ How to Heal a Broken Relationship
👉 ⁃ How to Work with Almost Anyone
👉 ⁃ Inspiring Others with “Possibilities”


🌟 About Michael:
Michael Bungay Stanier helps people know they’re awesome and they’re doing great. He’s best known for The Coaching Habit, the best-selling coaching book of the century and recognized as a classic. His most recent book, How to Work with (Almost) Anyone, shows how to build the Best Possible Relationship with the key people at work. Michael was a Rhodes Scholar. He’s Australian, and lives in Toronto, Canada. Learn more at www.MBS.works.


🙏 Thanks, Michael! Reach out, connect, and follow Michael:
👉 - https://www.instagram.com/mbs_works/
👉 - https://twitter.com/mbs_works
👉 - https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelbungaystanier/



🌟 Resources Mentioned in the Podcast:
👉 ⁃ Boxofcrayons.com
👉 ⁃ All of Michael’s books and offerings can be found at:  Bestpossiblerelationship.com
👉 ⁃ http://MBS.works/spread-the-word

🌟🌟 Check Out Robin's Keynote Speaking: https://www.peopleformula.com/speaking

Pre-Order my Latest Book: "Unbreakable Alliances: A Spy Recruiters Authoritative Guide to Cultivating Powerful & Lasting Connections" HERE

Unlocking the Power of Trust: Keynote Speaker Robin Dreeke Shares Secrets to Creating Allies - Robin is the former Chief of the FBI's Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program. With over 30 years of experience in recruiting spies and building trust, Robin is the world-renowned speaker you need. Don't miss out on the opportunity to learn from a true expert. Contact us now to book your event! Click HERE to book a time to chat.

🤔 Take Robin's FREE YouTube Keys to Communication Online Course HERE.

😃 Check out Robin's Speaking, and Training Services HERE.

Transcript

Michael: 0:04

And this actually says, take a step back and let's go. Hey, before we talk about what's the real challenge here, let's talk about you and me. How should we work together in a way that will be good for you and good for me? And the brave thing to do is to be that person who starts the conversation.

Robin: 0:21

We are often faced with difficult people and challenging situations, but knowing how to have a healthy conversation will make all the difference. Therefore, check out this compelling episode with world renowned author of the Coaching Habit, Michael Bungay Stanier, and discover how you can work with almost anyone. Welcome to the Forged by Trust podcast. I'm your host, Robin Dreeke, professional speaker, executive coach, former US Marine spy recruiter, best-selling author, and your trusting communication expert. Coming up next on the Forge By Trust podcast.

Michael: 0:52

and it's really that moment where I'm like, ask a question and be present to the answer. Ask a question and know that their first answer might not be their only answer. And it was that moment of kind of going, you know, it is valuable to hold space for others mm-hmm. To allow them to move into the spotlight that I might otherwise more naturally kind of Control. our happiness and our success is so dependent on our working relationships. Yes. And most of the time we just leave those to chance. So how do you build the best possible relationship? Something that is safe and vital and repairable, or one of the ways you do that is you talk about how we'll work together rather than what we're gonna be working on.

Robin: 1:37

The Forge By Trusts podcast is a show where we explore the essential skill of forging trust for building an innovative culture and exceptional leadership. Join us as we delve into the behavior, skills and communication techniques required for success and learn from the best in the industry. Our guests include spies, spy recruiters, master interrogators, best-selling authors, thought leaders, and innovators who will share their insights on building teams, partnerships, and exceptional leadership by four Gene Trust. Today's episode, how to Work With Almost Anyone, is with the insightful and inspirational international bestselling author Michael Bunge. Stanier Michael helps people know they're awesome and they're doing great. He's best known for his book The Coaching Habit, which is the bestselling book on coaching this century, and is considered a classic. His most recent book is How to Work with Almost Anyone, and it shows how to build the best possible relationship with the key people at work. He founded Box of Crayons, a learning and development company that has trained hundreds of thousands of managers to be more coach-like in organizations from Microsoft to Gucci. Bouncing out these moments of success, he was banned from his high school graduation for the balloon incident was sued by one of his law school professors for defamation, and his first published piece of writing was a Harlequin romance esque story involving a misdelivered letter and called the mail delivery. During the episode today, we talk about how to start a healthy conversation, how to heal a broken relationship, how to work with almost anyone, and inspiring others with possibilities. So Michael, I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for taking the time out, especially now. You have a fantastic new book coming out. I can't imagine how busy you must be, but I wanna thank you for joining me on

Michael: 3:19

Forged by Trust. Thank you. Look, I'm happy to be here. You're right. What people don't often know if they're not authors themselves is the, like the one or two or three months before a book launch, you run around like a headless chicken in a, in a, in a desperate, needy, begging way. No actual feedback from the world about how it's going. So it's a bit of a, kind of a demanding time, but I've now done enough books that I know how to get through this and it's just part of the process. And. June 27th, when the book is out, I can kind of relax and just let the thing go free.

Robin: 3:53

Absolutely. And for those listening, check it out in the show notes. We'll have all the links there. And so, yes, this manic life of making a massive difference in people's lives and for my show, I'm hoping that you'll get a chance to kind of sit back for the next, you know, 45 or 50 minutes and just relax as have a great conversation. But starting with the most important thing. And that is discovering the arc of people's lives. Cuz it all starts when we're young with the right person at the

4:21

right

Michael: 4:22

time.

Robin: 4:23

Even sometimes trauma, but always something that gave us that initial oomph that says, this is the path of my life. And yours has been a pass of creating great, strong relationships and being passionate about how to help other people do that. So Michael, what was that, do you think, when you were growing up that origin story that created this, this path in your life?

Michael: 4:44

You know, it's a great question and I'm not entirely sure. I mean, I'm a big believer of that saying your inspiration is when your past suddenly makes sense. Yes. So when you kinda look back and you go, oh, that's why I hated that moment, and I love that moment and I learned that thing and I struggle with this thing and I wanna try prize for that thing. There are all these clues that if you're lucky come together in a moment where you're like, oh, I've got a sense of, of what I'm here to do. So there are, I'd say there are three moments that have helped catalyze how I show up in the world right now. The first was a thing, a disrupting moment. I was 14. I was at school. My Latin teacher, cuz I'm sorry, real quick. I'm sorry. Real quick. Where did you grow up? I grew up, sorry, I grew up in Canberra, in Australia. So I'm Australian born. My dad's English, my mom's Australian they moved to Canberra when it was a, a new, a newish city. Canberra's, the capital of Australia, but it was built in between Sydney and Melbourne because Sydney and Melbourne couldn't decide where the capital would be. So I had a very happy childhood growing up. My parents were a great role model for parenting and strong relationships. I have two younger brothers. I liked school, I liked sport, I liked reading. So, you know, I, my wife looked at my, my family like, you're the Waltons. I'm like, we're not quite the Waltons, but we were, we were a pretty content family unit, unit for the most part. But 14, I'm in high school. My Latin teacher, cuz I had had this, for some reason I thought studying Latin would be a good idea. Ask me, so what are you planning on doing after high school? I had not thought about it. It hadn't even occurred to me really that there wasn't after high school. Right. I said kind of just off the, off the cuff, I'm planning on going to study at Oxford University because my dad, who's British, grew up in Oxford and went to study in Oxford and was a bit of a role model for me. So I'm like, well, if dad went to Oxford, I should maybe try and go to Oxford. And what did your dad do? He was an aeronautical engineer. Oh, big, big pound brain. Yeah. So, well, he bought, he, he studied planes and he ended up buying planes for the Australian Air Force. That was just a big, bad job. And anyway, Mr. Lennox said to me, well, to go to Oxford, you'll probably have to be a road scholar. And I'm like, okay. I don't know what that is, but noted, that's what I'm kind of setting as an intention. That was a, a, a seed planted that was really significant. The next seed planted probably was when I was 17 or 18 final years of high school. And I would find myself having gone out with my friends, sitting in the car with typically another male friend, listen to them, talk about their angst filled life. And you know, it's like, it is all the drama that comes with the teenage life and, Recognizing that I was quite good at being with somebody and listening to them, and also recognizing that I had no idea what I was doing and whether this was helpful or not. So when I was 19, I did my first training in asking questions and, and listening. It was for a youth suicide hotline or trauma hotline, so for, wow,

Robin: 8:02

that's amazing. What got you into

Michael: 8:03

that? I, you know, a friend of mine had done it and I was kind of talking about this thing and he said, you should do, you should do youth line. And I was like, I should. And so I got trained in, in that experience and gerian counseling, and it's really that moment where I'm like, ask a question and be present to the answer. Ask a question and know that their first answer might not be their only answer. Ask a question, hold the space. That is crazy amazing

Robin: 8:29

that you were inspired to do that. That's not a typical thing for a teenager to do, to be outwardly focused on others. Where do you think that came

Michael: 8:35

from? I. That I'm not sure. I mean, make no mistake, I had plenty of focus on me. I was like, you know, I was like a, a bit about me, but my dad in particular was a very selfless man. He was always volunteering and contributing and ensuring that we were, you know, the, the word language I'd use now is giving more to the world than we take. That was very much his orientation. Wow. He was, he was in service in various ways as a volunteer in the, like, all his life. And I feel like I've got some of that rubbed off. Absolutely. It seems like it. No doubt. Yeah, so sorry. Having the seed planted as a Rhode Scholar and then I became a Rhode Scholar eventually, and went to England and met my wife and she's Canadian. So that was a significant thing, having this seed planted around listening and, and the power of that. And then probably about 20 years ago, so when I was in my mid thirties, a classic midlife thing, I joined the, gosh, I've forgotten the name of the organization. It'll come back to me. But it was basically a men's group to do men's work and Yeah, because I was thinking to myself, you know, I am good at listening. I'm not that good at talking about my feelings. I'm not that good at even realizing what my feelings are. I'm a bit of a head, a brain attached to a body carrying the brain around, and I'd like to try and get a bit more integrated around that. So it was a place for kind of men to get together and talk about their stuff and talk about what's going on for them, and kind of own the responsibility of what it means to be a, a. A man in a kind of more complete sentence. So this is not just to be clear, not kind of like the right, the right wing ish kind of, you know, men over women thing. It's more a. Man, we men have their own wounds and their own pain and their own struggles, and they're basically mostly not as good at talking about it and getting support around it as women. That's why, for instance, the number of men committing suicide is much greater than the number of women committing suicide. Do

Robin: 10:35

you remember what, what some of the sparks or what was going on in your life? I mean, you said it was kind of like the midlife crisis thing then, but what else? Yeah. I mean, what, what kind of directed you to this that you

Michael: 10:44

think, you know, it wasn't a crisis. But I have always had a hunger to keep developing who I am, to try and become a more nuanced, subtle, wise person to try and own the light and the shadows of who I am. The good, the, you know, the, the dark, the messy, the screwed up. You know, to feel more completely, to contribute more completely. That's, that's just a, a seed planted. That's just a, a, a part of the wiring that came, that came with the, that came with the initial build, I think. And, and curious too,

Robin: 11:23

Michael, you must have had a lot of really powerful moments doing that counseling in high school Yep. That inspired you to keep going with it. Do you remember one that you kind of locked onto that said, wow, you know what, I think I can make a difference doing this. That inspired

Michael: 11:39

you to keep going? Yeah. Well, weirdly enough it's not really a moment doing Youth Line Lifeline that catalyzed this for me. It was actually, but about the same time, so going through the training, I suspect I was actually in a class at university in a tutorial, so not a lecture, but you know, like 15 of us sitting around talking about something, about a book Cuz I studied literature. Sure. And it was like me, my friend Michael, another Michael. And like 12 women. And Michael and Michael were doing a whole lot of the talking embarks. Were enthusiastic and we like books and we liked ideas and we like pursuing that stuff. But I do remember this moment where I'm like, you know, for somebody who is one 15th of the class, I'm speaking quite a lot. And it was that moment of kind of going, you know, it is valuable to hold space for others mm-hmm. To allow them to move into the spotlight that I might otherwise more naturally kind of control I've got a whole bunch of that stuff. Like I've got a lot of those cards of, you know, what you'd call privilege now, overeducated, tall, white, straight. Very good looking for the people who can't see me. All, all of that. So I'm like, so this idea of how do you, how do you de center yourself if you have power and privilege was kind of planted there as well. So it's like curiosity, creating space, serving others. And so this moment in the, the men's group, the Mankind Project is, is what it's called, mankind Project. We did a kind of build your mission statement and. What came to me was to infect a billion people with the possibility virus. Mm-hmm. What's powerful about that, and this is, you know, in turn of these sparks of light, that kind of influenced my, my journey. You know, obviously now that we've just gone through a pandemic, the whole virus metaphor is less interesting for people. But a billion people speaks to a really big ambition around the impact I want to have on the world Now, the Possibility Virus. Which I think about is helping people make braver choices. See, see the options, see possibilities, and make braver choices. But the virus metaphor is these are my contributions, need to spread without me. So again, it's that kind of like, I don't need to be the guru. I don't, not that interested in being the guru. But how do I be a really effective teacher? How do I contribute what I've got to serve the world without needing to also be in the center of the, the stage as I do that? That's

Robin: 14:24

amazing. And how did you do that? The Coaching habit was such a viral book. Wow. It is a powerful book. The message is simple, but like you said, like we had never met yet. I have, I've imbued mo mosts of it in my life and, and I passed it on to others. Like you said, it's, it's part of that virus.

Michael: 14:42

How do you do that? I, I wish I knew that. I mean, that would be great, wouldn't it? If I, if I could figure that out because, you know, I've written eight or nine books. One of them has been huge. The coaching habits sold more than a million copies. A few have been pretty big, like, you know, more than a hundred thousand copies sold. And a bunch of them haven't sold. I mean, they've sold okay. But I certainly haven't sold 1.2 or 1.3 million or copies or whatever the coaching habit sold. So I'm not totally sure. It's partly. Knowing who you serve is partly for me, a commitment on how I try and teach, which is like, what's the least I could teach that's the most useful. How do I unw stuff that feels complicated and hard for people so that normal people can go, oh, if that's coaching, I could give that a go. You're in this new book. It's like, oh, if this is what trying to build a better working relationship is, even though I'm not even necessarily a people person, I can give that a go. Partly it's a commitment to market it. So go on podcasts and talk about it and promote it and kind of keep going around that. And then it's like a whole kind of sprinkling of Mary very dust unicorn farts. I don't know what it is, but there's something that happens, which is like a good, a book well written with a good idea that also just showed up at the right time in the right place and served a need that wasn't being met by other books. So you hit something

Robin: 16:09

in there that I've been fascinated by, by a number of people recently, and that is where you take this, this early spark of service and making this connection. And I love how you articulate a vacating the space for someone else to shine. I know I paraphrased it there, but that was what came across. It's, it's a beautiful imagery. How did you go from that to taking it and becoming a teacher? Because having the idea and being this, this expert that gets it and transitioning to being able to pass it along, it's, it's a special skillset that you now have. Yeah. What was a spark that want, that inspired you to start to want to teach and not be the sole proprietor of the guru

Michael: 16:50

ship? Yeah. I, I have a, a. I have roots, I have heritage of teachers. Like three of my four grandparents were teachers. Oh yeah. Some of my uncles are teachers. One of my brothers trained as a teacher. I had a year off between high school and university where I went to England and I worked in a school as a teacher. So there's this, and you know, I had some great teachers from my high school and from my university. So. I, I just see that as a real, really powerful way of contributing to the world. And, you know, so much of this is you figuring out what you do best and what you do most uniquely. And what is the biggest contribution to the world? And if you're lucky, you kind of land on something. So I'm like, you know, I can do a bunch of things. I can coach pretty well. I'm a pretty good keynote speaker. I can facilitate pretty well. I can design training well, but the thing I do best is to take complicated things and make them simple and accessible and practical and doable. And so if that's my core skill, which is that. Simplifying. Then how do I then get that out into the world? So how do I design the training and the books and the stuff that kind of comes from that? But it is that essence of going, look, there is so much good wisdom in this world. I, I don't claim to be that original and the stuff that I create, I always think of it as old wine and new bottles. But I, but, but I make a pretty good bottle. And I'm pretty good at trying to make some of this stuff more accessible for people so they can live a braver, better life. They can give more to the one that they take, that they can make braver choices. You've had a lot of great mentors

Robin: 18:43

in the teaching realm over the years. It sounds like you, can you maybe name or can you recall a couple of key things that. Might have, you had like one of those aha moments, you're like, wow, I'm gonna take

Michael: 18:56

that and carry that forward. Well, I, I'd speak to one of my teachers, Tim Norfolk, who taught me in high school, and he was the first teacher that was willing to be provocative. You know, he had a, he knew he had a group of smart kids. And what did he teach? He taught lit English literature. Okay. And. You know, he would, he would, he in a, in a really good way, he would kind of push and needle and provoke. And there's something about the way he met our intelligence. With his intelligence. He was much, he's a very smart man. He was much smarter than most of us, but he had a kind of a lightness of touch and, and and a willingness not to talk down to us. That felt thrilling. I remember being thrilled at his classes cuz they were so kind of provocative and stimulating. And this idea, you know, in the world that I work I find a lot of the way stuff gets taught can all be quite serious. This is, this is all about, this is about changing your life and changing your world. So we're gonna treat it really seriously and. I'm gonna tell you the terrible story of my terrible life, and then how I overcame it. Then I can upsell you on my course at the back of the room, and I'm like, I'm, I'm kind of allergic to a lot of that. A lot of what I try and do is like create a, a, a lightness of touch and a levity and a playfulness and and equality between me and the people that I'm working with. That I could definitely see in something that Tim would've role modeled for me back as a 14 year old.

Robin: 20:40

I love that, that in the way you even said the lightness of touch. Yeah. It's, it's so perfect. So we're doing the men's club, learning some more about ourselves. We're in our thirties, you said?

Michael: 20:53

Yep. What was next? Well, I got, I got fired. Which was a very helpful moment in my life. So I had Oh, that, okay, so now

Robin: 21:03

I, I gotta stop on that one. That is so fantastic. And I say fantastic because you saw life at that moment of being fired as a positive event.

Michael: 21:12

I did. You know, so the backstory to it is that I had met my wife in Oxford. We'd lived in London for a while. I moved to a new company and that company set up an office in Boston. And so it was a startup office and my wife. Happens to be a Boston Bruins fan, the ice hockey team. And so she's like, great, we're living in Boston. But it was a pretty crappy three years in Boston. The company really struggled. I didn't really have a role or a place that made a lot of sense. So what kind of things were you doing at this point? So I was working as a consultant in the world of change and change management in big organizations. Okay. And so I quit that job. We had plans to move to, to Canada. I lined up a job as a consultant up there. But our flight, I was out of Boston on nine 11. Oh. So for all the reasons you can. Think that flight didn't take off and everything got thrown into chaos, and the job I had lined up disappeared. We eventually crossed the border three or four days later by car. But I found a temporary job working in a kind of change management e role for one, a company here in Toronto. And it was a, like this miserable six, seven months. I, I, I could not do anything right. I couldn't make a plan that my boss liked. I couldn't, I had no, I had no direct control over anything. I had no influence over anything. I was just kind of flapping her in the breeze, just going, this is a very demoralizing experience, but it was a job and it was a salary and they paid for a a, a visa that allowed me to work sure on the day that my equivalent of a green card arrived the maple leaf card. Pretty much exactly that same day, my boss finally called me into her office and went, you're fired. This isn't working. And, you know, in rec, I mean, at the time I'm like, that's, I'm, I'm bummed out by that. Cause I had not really ever been fired before. But you know, I probably would've tried to grind it out for another month or two, or three or four as I was trying to figure out what to do next and getting fired. On the same week that my Maple Leaf card arrived, which meant I could work independently without a visa, right? Was was fantastic. So I then found some part-time work. I sta I effectively started what would become Box of Crayons, the training company I founded then. And it was kind of the start of me finally becoming an entrepreneur. A seed that I had been planted 10 years earlier, but I'd never quite figured out what to do. And now I'm like, now I have to figure out what to do because clearly the older I get, the the less employable I am. So I'm gonna have to start figuring out how to make my own money and, and start my own own businesses. So that 10 years

Robin: 23:58

earlier that you just mentioned, what was it that you experienced that gave you that I'm doing my little fingers like this, you know, that gave you that, that little nugget of entrepreneurship that entered

Michael: 24:07

your system. Yeah, so the first job I had when I finally left university, because I spent a long time in university, I did six years in university in Australia. I did a com combination of literature and law. So I did two degrees concurrently in Australia, which is not uncommon. They often do these combined degrees, and in Australia a law degree is an undergraduate degree. And then I won this Rhode scholarship that took me to Oxford to do a master's degree in literature. So now I kind of effectively spent eight years in university, which was. Too long. It was fine. I, I enjoyed most of it. It's literature. You could, but I'm like, it's a lot of time, you know, I'm now in my mid twenties and I still had no idea what I was doing or what I wanted to do, or who I was trying to be when I grew up. And I landed in a innovation company helping invent new products and new services. How, what's the, that so from, that's so amazing to me. So you have this

Robin: 25:03

amazing background of literature and law and you get into innovation and change management. Where's that

Michael: 25:11

connection? There? There is no real connection. Law, I, I, winning the scholarship was great for two reasons. One is I went to Oxford and immediately met Marcel and my wife and we've. On Friday, we'll be celebrating our 28th wedding anniversary. Yes. So that worked out well. The, the other big save gift from the Oxford was, it stopped me becoming a lawyer because, Even though I was getting a law degree, it, I hated it. I wasn't good at it. I literally finished my law degree being sued by one of my professors for defamation. So I'm like, the thing is, yeah, you know, you've got that sunk casting, which is like, I've done a law degree. I should probably at least try and be a lawyer for a little bit. Right? And I, and I would've been this unhappy and mostly underwhelming, probably incompetent lawyer. So I got saved from that. But I didn't know what I wanted to do and what in what this innovation company did, and this is in the, I guess, mid nineties now, kind of before innovation became a thing, right? Like it became a thing. Now people talk about innovation and it's books and innovation, but in the mid nineties it hadn't really been articulated as a discipline. But. For me it was, you need curiosity because you're, you're talking to people, you're running focus groups about what their experience is. Now, it took creativity cuz you had to hear what wasn't being said and imagine some solutions. It took empathy because you're trying to understand what the, what the problem was we could solve with a new product or a new service, and. What was a real gift for this company was they were trying not to be a regular company. So, so often when you start working, you spend your first year or two just learning how to be part of a system. They're kind of training you to work. This is how you behave. This is how you have a boss. This is how you work nine to five, Monday to Friday. This is how you fill out reports. This is how you sit in meetings. And you're kind of being taught in terms of how to be a corporate citizen. And Matt and Dave, the founders of this company, were like, we're trying whatever normal is, we're trying not to be normal cause we're an innovation company. So you know, I was allowed to have long hair. Earrings. I used to make my own clothes. I still, this shirt, I made this shirt many a few years ago now. So, you know, I make my own clothes. I sharp as a hippie, you know, they're like, you're weird and you're smart. And we like that. So just kind of be yourself. So there was permission to double down on who I was rather than lose some of the spark of who I was. And that was really helpful because, you know, King is a constant pressure to say behave. Okay. And this idea of like maintaining some of the spark and who you are and how you're different and being comfortable with that, that job actually helped me stick with some of that. Awesome.

Robin: 28:14

So we are now got our maple leaf card.

Michael: 28:18

Yes. What was next now? So now I'm setting up my company and. If you go a box of crowns.com, now you see a a really com a company that's really clear on what it does. It sells training to big corporations. It helps managers and leaders stay curious a little bit longer, tap into the power of curiosity. Oh yes. To be more coach-like so people can grow and you can focus on the work that matters. So as both, it kind of contributes to the culture and the strategy of big organizations. And it has clients like Microsoft and Gucci and Telus and Salesforce. So it's got this clear purpose, clear strategy, and none of that was happening when I started it. As I started it going, okay, I'm, I'm unemployable. I need to start my own business. I've just moved to Toronto. I've you six months into my life in Toronto. I know nobody. And so my business model at the start was, I will work for anybody with a pulse and a wallet, you know, and I had a, and I, you know, I had skills in market research, focus group facilitation, innovation, creativity, organizational change strategy a little bit values and vision. I kind of had done a, a, an assortment of stuff, so I spent the first. Three or four years putting together a kind of a rough portfolio of bits and pieces of stuff I could do. I did ran some training, did some culture work, did some innovation work, did some market research. But one client, Nestle here in Canada hired me to design some coach training. And this is another tipping point because I realized that in. I, I realized I had a, a bone to pick with how coaching was being taught in organizations. Mm-hmm. Because what was mostly happening then is people training, life coaches would show up going, let me train your managers. And they basically run the same training, but you know, every now and then mention the word organization to try and make it more properly. And I'm like, it's, it's a different thing being a manager and a leader who's trying to be coach-like, Is actually quite different from being a coach with a practice, with clients, different power, relationship, different thing with time, different expectations. So I wanted, I realized that A, the way coaching was being taught to managers and leaders was not being done particularly well. B, I had an opinion on how to do it better. I'm like, you have to build it around the reality of a busy, overwhelmed manager. And that's where my, all that kind of focus group stuff I did where I was trying to get into the heads of the consumers, it was really helpful cause I was in the heads and the hearts of busy managers. And thirdly, I could sell it like there was a need for this. And that's the magic kind of combination, which is like, Something different, something you care about, something that you can sell. If you get that, then you've got the, the makings of a potential business. So it took a while. It took a while for a box of crowns to have the courage. And by that I mean me, it took a while for me to have the courage to say, box of crowns just does this and it doesn't do other stuff. But after a while we got there and we've done that for quite a while now. So I. Founded and led that for quite a few years. And then about four years ago, I stepped away from being the c e o of that and handed it over to Shannon who is a far better c e o than I will ever be. And now I started a, a smaller company after that. What do you think it was that gave you the courage? Courage to step away from box of crayons or something else.

Robin: 32:11

It was the courage to really focus in on the coaching aspect. Yeah.

Michael: 32:18

Oh, I what was it then? I think partly it was just because every single thing I read about strategy, everything I think I taught about strategy was like, Strategy is saying yes to something and no, to a whole bunch of other things, right? And strategy is saying no to the stuff you don't wanna do, but it's also saying no to the stuff you do wanna do so that you have a singular point of difference. So it was a combination of having some success and making some sales around that, and having some coaches and teachers and tutors and mentors who finally went. Michael, for God's sake, man, you know, this. Now act on it. Be brave enough to say no. So I think I just got there eventually. It took me longer. I probably could have got there faster, but you know, you get there as fast as you can. All right. So we had the courage

Robin: 33:11

to step away. When did the writing really kick in?

Michael: 33:15

Well, the first book I ever wrote was called Get Unstuck and Get Going on the stuff that Matters. And it was a book I self-published. 2005, I think, something like that. And I'd had this idea and I thought it was a really great idea. It's like early on in my kind of coaching world, so in the two early two thousands. Mm-hmm. And, you know, those kind of kids flip books that have like a ballerina's head and a soccer player's body and a. Scuba diver's legs and you can flip'em around and make combinations, right? Something I never found that much fun. I'm like, I don't get the joy of a, that weird combination, but I thought it would be an interesting self-coaching tool. So I created a book where you had this sort of flip sections and one section was about quotes, and one section was about stories, and one section was about kind of models, but each section had a question or two attached to it. And the idea was you would show up and you would bring your challenge to the book and you would go, okay, my challenge is I wanna launch a new podcast. And you would open it up. There'd be like a hundred thousand different combinations you could create, and you'd have three or four different questions that would provoke you to think of ideas and new insights and new angles. Into what this was. So, you know, inspiration is when your past suddenly makes sense. This is me knowing about lateral thinking and Edward Deb Bono's work and how to generate ideas through my work with the innovation thing. Plus and noticing that a lot of coaching was, I thought a bit mediocre and people could just do that work by themselves and wanting to kind of get out of, get out of the spotlight, infect a billion people with the Possibility Virus. So I'm like, here's a way you can coach yourself. You can self-generate new perspectives. And so I had this idea and I tried to make some prototypes and it was quite hard and I kind of gave up because I'm like, I got a bit stuck and put it away in a draw somewhere. And then one day my cousin Robert caught up and said, you know that book you're talking about? It's such a good idea. I've been working with my boss here in England and it looks like you are not doing it. So do you mind if we do it? Cuz we love it. And I was like, what? What? So I was like, no, I am definitely doing it. And so that kind of accelerated and my grandfather died about the same time and left me about$20,000. And I'm like, I'm gonna spend all that money on self-publishing this book. It was before self-publishing became a thing, and even it was really complicated. So it involved hiring a project manager and get it printed in Hong Kong. I mean, it was just a thing. But that was the first book. And that kind of got me started. And then I wrote another book, which I, I, the I, the idea for it. Came to me while I was having a summer holiday in Einstein's cottage up in upstate New York. Now, Einstein's cottage sounds amazing, but the truth was, it was this. Derelict rundown. Kind of holes in the wall. Holes in the floor. It was, it was so, so disappointing from what I thought Einstein's cottage would be. Walter

Robin: 36:24

Isaacson, one of my great biographers I'd love to read, did a great book on Einstein, describes it very well.

Michael: 36:30

Just like that. That's per, I didn't know that, but that is perfect. So I stayed in that cottage. And so I woke up one morning, it was like four o'clock in the morning. It was stiflingly hot. There's no air conditioning. It's just like, ah, I can't get away to sleep. Went downstairs and I just had this idea for this book. It was originally called Find Your Great Work, and then got published. Let's Do Do More Great Work, and it was a series of exercises to help you figure out what great work was for you. More impact and more meaning and how exercises to kind of help you. Fine name, claim, and pursue your great work. So I went through the process of writing it. I, I self-published it, but just before I kind of announced it to the world, a New York publisher discovered it and went, hold the presses. We'll, we'll take this on and we'll republish it. So I then went through the process of rewriting it with them. But that was my second book that came out in 2008, I think called Do More Great Work. And this is when the, the, the, the flywheel of writing started to turn for me. I did a partnership with Seth Golden in 2011, a book called N Malaria, which raised about$400,000 for malaria no more. Which was another one of those moments of being in service, cuz I was the editor behind it. And I did all the work and I gathered all the things. But really the, the book got the credit and the, and the book raised the money. But then things really got going with the coaching habit in 2016, right? So that, that book got turned down five or six times by the, the publishers for do more great work. So finally I went, screw it. I'm gonna self-publish it. And then since then I've published a couple more books or three more books and I'm really kind of stepping into this identity of being a writer, putting out books on a regular basis. Cause like I said, way back when I feel like. That is possibly the thing I do most uniquely. And also you have

Robin: 38:25

as what I call reps. I mean, literature has been your

Michael: 38:28

life from Right, exactly. I've read a lot. And to be a good writer, you really often really need to be a good reader. And I'm a good reader. Yeah, it's,

Robin: 38:37

it's a humbling, it's a humbling thing. The more you read, the more humble you get. And you're like, the last one you wrote, you're like, oh my gosh. And so with that, I'm curious with all that you've written, you've read, you've written tremendous bestsellers. What's different between what you've written before, cuz it's an evolution of where we're at today. So yeah. Where are we at today with your amazing book that's coming out, how to work with

Michael: 38:59

almost Anyone? That's right. So it feels like it's a continuation of my style of writing. So I'm trying to write a short book. I'm trying to write a practical book. I'm trying to write a funny book that's got a lightness of touch to it, and so how to work with almost anyone and I'm trying to solve a problem, help people solve a problem, right? And you know, often with books, you write a book and you're not quite sure what it's gonna be called, and you actually spend quite a lot of time fretting about the title and the subtitle, combination. Right with this book, how to Work with Almost Anyone. I'm like, that is the best title. It's like I haven't met a single person who hasn't gone. That is a great title. You're exactly. I know. It's a great title. Guesswork. Yeah. So now I just need to hope that the book is lives up to the title. Often it's the other way around. But you know, the heart of it is a key problem. Which is our happiness and our success is so dependent on our working relationships. Yes. And most of the time we just leave those to chance. Mm. So how do you build the best possible relationship? Something that is safe and vital and repairable, or one of the ways you do that is you talk about how we'll work together rather than what we're gonna be working on. So a combination of let's talk about how you and I can work best together. And, you know, in a kind of, I guess a nod to the coaching habit, it's like, here are five good questions, right? That can structure a conversation, that can help you figure out with this person, this is what we should do and not do, so that we have the best chance to build the best version of a working relationship between the two of us. What are a few things that people can

Robin: 40:42

do may or maybe just one or two to really focus in on those, on that first contact about how to structure that conversation around how we can work

40:51

together.

Michael: 40:53

You know, so the thing that gets, people often raise their hand and they go Isn't this gonna be a bit awkward? I'm like, it probably is going to be a bit awkward because it's not a common conversation in organizations, but the, in part because the work is always so demanding and so bright and so shiny and like when you get together you're like, what? Great, what are you doing? I mean, even in the coaching habit book, you know the, the. The focus question is what's the real challenge here for you? It's like, let's talk about, let's talk about the, the, the thing that we're trying to solve or figure out or kind of get action on. And this actually says, take a step back and let's go. Hey, before we talk about what's the real challenge here, let's talk about you and me. How should we work together in a way that will be good for you and good for me? And the brave thing to do is to be that person who starts the conversation. Who slows down the rush to action and says, let's figure out the best way for us to work before we get into the work. Because I can promise you at some stage things are gonna go off the rails. Something's gonna break, somebody's gonna get disappointed. Somebody's heart is gonna crack a little bit. Somebody's gonna accidentally screw up or make a betrayal or say something that they shouldn't have said. And if you can figure out how to get back from that. So that you have a relationship that is feel safe, so people can be who they need to be vital so that they can explore the edges of who they are and have adventures and have some fun and repairable because something will get broken somewhere on the line. You got the chance of the best version of you and that person working together. So inevitably

Robin: 42:41

when someone in a relationship breaks a bit because of something going off the rails, what's maybe one thing to kind of start that conversation so you can start the mend again, do you think?

Michael: 42:53

Yeah. Well, if you've had a keystone conversation, which is what I've called that five question conversation, one of the five questions is, how will you repair this? Or how will we repair this? And the power of that question. Is less in the answers that get given immediately, less in the tactics that get shared and more in the permission to say, Hey, this got broken. Hey, we, we, we've got permission to say like, we predicted we need to repair this. Now let's, let's have a go at that. But if there's a, if you wanna go down to a kind of more practical level to articulate what's happened. I, I think the the feedback structure that I think. First talked about in the coaching habit, and I think I give a nod to in this book as well. It has its origins in non-violent commu communication by Marshall Rosenberg, right? And it says, look, everything that's going on, that swirl of stuff that's in your head and your heart as you experience whatever the brokenness is, can be teased out into four different buckets. There's the data, there are the feelings, there are the judgements, and there's what you want and what you need. At the moment, and most of the stuff, time this stuff is just an unholy, blended cocktail of misery. Cause it all feels about the same, right? And what's really helpful in a tough time is to take a moment and tease out what's what, what are the actual facts? And what's amazing when you do that is you discover how few facts there are, right? It's much less data than you think. How are you feeling? About the situation and, you know, maybe you've, you've remembered all of the 73 feelings in Brene Brown's, Atlas of the Heart. I can't do that. So I go with five. Mad, sad, glad, ashamed, and afraid. That covers most of the big feelings. And, you know, there's variations on all of those. So how I feeling? It's mostly sad, a bit mad, and a bit ashamed and a bit afraid. It's the com combination of those four often. Then I go, what are my, what are my judgments? And you'll have judgments about them. You'll have a ton of judgments about They are stupid. Yeah. Angry looking to bring me down. Incompetent. I mean, you could, once you get going, you could just go rich on it. But it's also worth noticing the judgments you have about yourself. I am, you know, afraid I am. I'm, I'm not doing a good job. I should have done this. You can kind of beat up on yourself judgments. You can also have judgements about the situation. Often feelings and judgments play together. I am angry because you are an idiot. I am sad because I just can't trust you. Those are all feeling judgment statements. And then there's what do you want and what do you need? And this is actually, I think the, the thing that unlocks this, because often I think people hesitate to give feedback. Not because they're afraid of conflict or a difficult conversation, cuz they don't know what to ask for, right? Mm-hmm. Once you know the request, you wanna make what needs to be said so that other person has a context for that request actually becomes much clearer. So this idea of going, okay, this, this thing got broken between us, here's, here's my request, here's what I want, here's what I need. Once you get clear on that, you get armed. Get ready for that conversation to go back. Let's try and fix this. Everything you described is

Robin: 46:32

poetic and powerful and very innovative compared to the just a standard what question and diving right into action Yeah. Also requires a, an immense amount of bravery because you're being transparent and

Michael: 46:44

vulnerable. I think. So how do you.

Robin: 46:47

Inspires someone at the get-go to do that, because that's a challenge

Michael: 46:51

I'd imagine. I don't know. You know?

Robin: 46:57

It's okay. We don't know everything some

Michael: 46:58

days, you know, I think, I think that's kind of the, that's really the gauntlet that this new book is laying down, which is like, will you be that person who's gonna be brave? Oh, I love that. It doesn't always take bravery. You know, I, I got interviewed the other day by somebody who said, we just tried this out. We actually had an onboarding process. Somebody knew joining the company, so we just asked them these questions and it went really well. And it didn't feel like a brave thing. It felt like just a useful process to, to introduce. But there's no doubt that if you are, if you introduce this, you're like saying, let's make this personal. Let's just make this about you and me. And if you're the initiator, often there's a core to say, be the strongest signal because the, the depth and the expansion of the courage and the vulnerability you show is exactly how far the other person will go because your ex, your, your role are role modeling the boundaries of what's in and what's out. So the more willing you are to be open-hearted and courageous and. And soft underbelly and all of that stuff, the more capacity the other person might have to, to follow that as well. But you're right. It's like, it's, I you're saying take off a mask, be ask for what you want, be human. These are, these are, these are big asks and, and rewarding asks to, to, to be had and in the way that we work together.

Robin: 48:29

And there's no better person, I think, to bring it to the world than you because you have a ability to communicate it. I'm excited for this next this next virus that you're starting with this Thank you. Latest innovative book,

Michael: 48:42

like Covid, but better. Absolutely.

Robin: 48:44

Michael, what's something I should have asked you that you wanted to make sure you shared before

Michael: 48:48

we get going? That's, thank you for asking that. It's one of my favorite questions. My, my variation on that question is what needs to be said. That hasn't yet been said. It's a ation to talk about in the book as well, because so maybe that's the, maybe that's the, the, the thing to share. So when you, when you have a conversation with somebody and your, it's an important relationship, one of the great questions to ask. Fairly frequently is what needs to be said. That hasn't yet been said beautiful because it's an invitation to speak to the whisperings and the, the, I'm not quite sure if this is an actual thing. It uncovers the small stuff before it becomes the beat stuff, and it allows you to preemptively fix things that aren't yet broken or. Fixed things that have just begun to break early on. So particularly if you're in the person that has the balance of authority or status or power in the relationship, asking what needs to be said that hasn't yet been said, and then being quiet and allowing them to think that through, decide whether they're gonna be brave enough to say it and then say it is extremely powerful.

Robin: 50:04

Is perfect. Oh my gosh. I'm gonna rephrase how I asked that question now at the end, Michael, where can people go to get this amazing new book of yours and find out more about you and Vox of Crowns too?

Michael: 50:17

Perfect. So for the book, best possible relationship.com. We're on a mission to try and improve 10 million working relationships, so I hope people might pick up a book or two and in fact, 10 or tw 20 people, and then we're gonna get there far sooner rather than later. For more about me and the work I do, helping people unlock greatness, their own greatness and other people's greatness. mbs.works is the, the website for that. And if you happen to have an enormous training corporate budget and you're lucky to spend it on coach training, box of crayons.com is the place to go for that.

Robin: 50:52

All in the show notes everyone. Michael, I can't thank you more from the bottom of my heart for coming on and allowing me to be part of the

Michael: 51:00

virus. Well, thank you. It was a great conversation. I loved, I loved how you asked me about the kind of the journey that got me from where I started to where I am now, and kind of pulled out some of those, those crossroad moments that made all the difference.

Robin: 51:13

Ah, thank you. It's an amazing journey you've been on, and thank you so much

Michael: 51:17

for sharing it with us. My pleasure. Thank you.

Robin: 51:20

Thank you for tuning into another episode of Forged By Trust. Remember, if you wanna forge trust, it's not how you make people feel about you that matters. It's how you make them feel about themselves. If you're interested in more information about how I can help you forge your own trust, building communication, interpersonal strategies as a speaker, your coach, a trusted advisor for you or your organization, Please visit my website@www.peopleformula.com. I'm looking forward to sharing my next Forge by Trust episode with you. Next week when we chat with Dan Toni, as we do a deep dive and discover how to thrive in conflict,