The Healing Power of Nonverbal Behavior w/ David Matsumoto

In a world where trust is often elusive, Dr. David Matsumoto's journey stands as a testament to its transformative power. As a judo practitioner, he found more than just physical strength on the mat; he discovered a foundation built on trust. This trust in himself and his abilities propelled him to become a USA Judo Coach, leading athletes to four Olympics. But it was a profound act of trust that would forever change his life. When a student bestowed upon him the gift of a kidney, they placed their ultimate trust in his hands. Guided by a service mentality, David embraces each day with a selfless approach, recognizing the incredible impact that trust and compassion can have on those around him. Join us as we delve into the remarkable story of a man who embodies the mantra "Fall down seven times, stand up eight," and learn how starting each day with a selfless heart can truly make a difference in the lives of others. Get ready to be inspired by the extraordinary journey of Dr. David Matsumoto.

What We Discuss with David:

⁃       The Positive Impact of Trust 

⁃       Judo as a Foundation 

⁃       A Service Mentality for Life

⁃       USA Judo Coach and Four Olympics 

⁃       The Life Saving Gift of a Kidney and Trust from a Student

⁃       Fall Down Seven Times Stand up Eight

⁃       Starting Everyday Being Selfless

About David:

Dr. David Matsumoto, Director of Humintell, is a world-renowned expert in emotion, nonverbal behavior, deception, and culture. He has an extensive academic background and is a Professor of Psychology at San Francisco State University. With over 400 academic works, he is the author of several influential books in the field of psychology. He has received numerous awards and is a Fellow of various prestigious associations. As the President and CEO of Humintell, he conducts research funded by various government agencies and private corporations. Additionally, he has served as an instructor for the FBI and the U.S. State Department. Dr. Matsumoto is an expert in threat assessment and has conducted groundbreaking research on the behaviors of bad actors and deception indicators. Outside of psychology, he is an accomplished judoka, holding an 8th degree black belt and coaching certifications. 

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Transcript

David: 0:04

In Japanese there's a saying, fall down seven times, stand up eight times. And it's literally like that every day. And when you do that every day you can, you can push the wall back, you can get over that wall many times. And when you can get, we can, when you can manipulate the wall, you become a really strong person. But most people, Cannot and do not want to deal with the wall.

Robin: 0:27

In a world where trust is often elusive, Dr. David Matsumoto journey stands as a testament to his transformative power as a judo practitioner, he found more than just physical strength on the mat. He discovered a foundation built on trust. This trust in himself and his abilities propelled him to become a U S A judo coach, leading athletes to four Olympics. But it was a profound act of trust that would forever change his life. When Abst student bestowed upon him the gift of a kidney, they placed their ultimate trust in his hands, guided by a service mentality. David embraces each day with a selfless approach, recognizing the incredible impact that trust and compassion can have on those around him. Join us, as we delve into the remarkable story of a man who embodies the mantra. Fall down seven times, standup eight, and learn how starting each day with a selfless heart can truly make a difference in the lives of others. Get ready to be inspired by the extraordinary journey of Dr. David Matsumoto. Welcome to the Forge by Trust podcast. I'm your host, Robin Dreeke, professional speaker, executive coach, former US Marine Spy recruiter, best Lane author, and your trust and communication expert. Coming up next on the Forge By Trust podcast.

David: 1:33

being there unconditionally for people. Mm-hmm. No matter what they do, no matter whether they're successful at it or not, you're always there and you're there for them, whether you're on the mat or not off the mat. And you're there for them. You're just, you're just there for them, right? They're willing to give everything. I'm willing to give everything. I think there's a thing in society today, which is more of an inner focus on whatever feels good rather than serving others in a deeper way. but there's an attitude I start with every day, which is how, how can I be selfless today?

Robin: 2:10

The Forge By Trust Podcast is a show where we explore the essential skill of forging trust for building an innovative culture and exceptional leadership. Join us as we delve into the behavior, skills and communication techniques required for success and learn from the best in the industry. Our guests include spies, spy recruiters, master interrogators, bestselling authors, thought leaders, and innovators who will share their insights on building teams, partnerships, and exceptional leadership by for Gene Trust Today's episode, the Healing Power of Non-Verbal Behavior is with the world-renowned non-verbal behavior expert, Dr. David Matsumoto. Dr. David Matsumoto is a director of Human Intel, is a world renowned expert in no emotion, non-verbal behavior, deception, and culture. He has an extensive academic background and is a professor of psychology at San Francisco State University. He's the author of several influential books in the field of psychology. He has received numerous awards and is the fellow of various prestigious associations. Additionally, he has served as an instructor for the F B I and the US State Department. Dr. Matsumoto is an expert in threat assessment, has conducted groundbreaking research on the behaviors of bad actors and deception indicators outside of psychology. He's an accomplished judoka, holding an eighth degree black belt in coaching certifications. He has won multiple awards and he has held leadership roles in judo organizations, including coaching the 1996 Atlantic Olympic Judo team. He was recently inducted into the US JF Hall of Fame for significant contributions to the sport. During the episode. Today, we talk about the positive impact of trust. Judo is a foundation, a service mentality for life. U s A judo coach, and for Olympics, the lifesaving gift of a kidney and trust from a student. Fall down seven times, standup eight, and starting every day being selfless. David Matsumoto. Wow. This has been a long life journey to finally have a fantastic conversation with you, my friend. We have circled the same orbits for quite a while. I mean, I was, I was at Quantico. I got assigned there back in 2007, and I had heard your name over in the other side, a new agent training and all the advanced training for interviewing, interrogation, and this nonverbal expert over there. Friends syndrome, Navarro, my Jedi master and longtime friend. And so we've been in these circles together for such a long time, but I can't believe it's took us this long through our great mutual friend Michael Redington, who is an amazing interviewer himself. And so I thank our shout out to him for thanking him, for connecting us and for thanking you for coming on the show and sharing your wisdom. So anyway,

David: 4:45

welcome. Well, thank you so much. Yeah, we, we, we were circling the, we were in the same circles. And I'm, I'm glad that we finally have a chance to, to talk like this. And there, and you know, how we came about is as you mentioned Michael, I've known Michael for, for years. Wow. And when he suggested to talk with you about being on this thing, as you know, I'm, I, I'm a person, as I think you are. You know, when you trust somebody, You and they're in your circle. It's like, okay, then I'll, I, I don't ask any questions, I just do it. And so here we are. Oh, my

Robin: 5:18

goosebumps are going. We had a beautiful transfer of trust and I. That's what's gonna be really fantastic about this episode. We're gonna focus on trust, even though it's called forged by trust, I think a bit more than we have in the past. And with some of the past guests, we was always talking about human behavior and we're always talking about how to interact and create good, strong, healthy relationships. But as always, during our. Pre-call. You've really brought up an amazing thing, which is really important to me in life, and I think all of us is identifying pain and helping people move through pain. And you use non-verbals, and you mentioned this to heal pain, and so you are. A Renaissance man of multiple disciplines. Judo, which I definitely want to get into'cause that's where I think some of that origin story comes from. But also you're international nonverbal expert and also a human behavior interaction expert, really about trust. And so David, all those years ago, where did this

David: 6:18

journey begin? Well, I, I, well, thank you for, for those accolades. I, I don't know whether I share in calling myself any of those things, but yeah, the, the, the journey starts like, like many people's journeys. I think when, when when I was born and growing up, I'm, I'm born and raised in Honolulu, Hawaii and to a wonderful, wonderful family. And, and there's a big message about trust in that, in that in my, the family circle that I grew up in and, and still have. And I'm very fortunate to have that because as you know, there's many, many people who don't, are not fortunate to have that, that trust in their families. But anyway, I was born and raised. Oh. So

Robin: 7:01

let's just stop there a second. Oh, sure. No problem. You're already dropping some beautiful words in there. Sure. Trust in the family. What did, how did you define that? What does trust in the family look like?

David: 7:10

You know, the thing about it is, I, as I'm thinking about it, trust in the family may not, may not be as obvious until you, you can compare someplace where you, where, where some family unit that doesn't have it. I mean, I, I was, I never doubted my parents and my, my brother, I have two brothers. They're younger or older. Oh, they're both older than me. Okay. I'm the baby of the family. Boy, I got a story for you about that too. But the go everywhere, I never, I never doubted that they were there for me. And, you know, my, my family is my family's old school, you know, I mean, my parents are second generation Japanese, and those are as, as many. Immigrants and immigrant children are, they're, they're hardworking people, you know? Right. And so they were touchy feely. They never said, I love you. However, I never doubted it. I never doubted that they were there for me. And I think that, that, that unconscious doubt is one level of trust. That's just an amazing. An amazing thing. I mean, it's not like they never, I, I never got scolded or I never got you know, whacked on the butt a, a number of times, many times. But looking back at how my family was there, I mean, it's, it's, I think that set me on the path for being trusting and, and, and trying to be trustworthy. To others. And I, I think that that's more difficult for people who don't, who may not have that kind of environment and you don't think about it like that, right? You don't, many kids, I mean, kids don't think about it, right? But looking back now, I think, I think I was really fortunate to, to have that family unit where my journey of trust building and trustworthiness started. I think

Robin: 8:58

that's really fascinating that you can recollect that they didn't say. The words, I love you, but you felt that there was trust and you felt safe. How did that show up? Do you think that you were able to feel that emotion from them? What were the actions? What were the behaviors? What do you think was going on that allowed that to show up and give you, thats sense of safety and security?

David: 9:22

Well, I, I gotta tell you, I'm, I'm smiling when you're talking about that because I don't know if I felt. The touchy feely stuff, you know, because

Robin: 9:29

Right. It doesn't have to be felt touchy, feely, just we have to feel safe. There's difference.

David: 9:33

Yeah. It's, it's, it's the feeling of, it's not even a feeling of safe. It's a, it's maybe an unconscious knowledge, right. Of, of safety and of knowing that they're there. I mean, I never doubted that they were there in the sense of being there. Physically for whatever an appointment, they're gonna pick me up, they're gonna take me someplace. Or just being there in a more, more metaphorical way. Like, like being there for me, having my best interest out, for me, thinking about me. And it's that unconscious knowledge I think of, of trust and safety that is maybe even difficult to speak. Difficult to say at least for me. That, that is different than, you know, a, a relationship you build later on where you actually feel sentimentally, you feel something towards an affinity towards somebody. And certainly now I have affinity towards my parents. I mean, they're both gone, but I have affinity. But I'm thinking when I was a kid, I don't, I don't think I ever felt like, like I know of the feeling now, if that makes sense. It was just an unconscious knowledge. That, that net was there and that, I think there's, there's a level of trust that that existed. I mean, I know it, I know that that level of trust existed.

Robin: 10:51

Sounds like they were deeply present, at the very least. Yes. And involved

David: 10:56

in your life. That's a good way to say it. Yes, they were. They were there. They were, they were, they allowed me to go and do my own thing, but they were always there. Right. Present, physical, and the psychological meaning of all that, that word, you know?

Robin: 11:13

Absolutely. It's a generational thing as well, you know, of course. You know, we're, our generation is very much the get outdoors and don't go back home because who knows what'll happen there. But same time though, you know, you know, you're always looking over your shoulders at mom and dad or bza. This, there's always, there's, there's always someone

David: 11:31

watching. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But that I, you know, I have a, I have a great, I great family. I haven't had great family and that's where it started. I, along, along the way early on, you know, this is all before this nonverbal psychology behavior analysis stuff. I, I, I started judo. I started judo when I was seven. And so

Robin: 11:55

let's go into that because this is really fascinating. What brought us to the point, it's, boy, I'm, I'm making you really remember things long time ago. I apologize. Yeah, no problem. So judo, that's an unusual thing for some people to get into. What inspired that to happen?

David: 12:11

I wasn't inspired at all, tell you the truth. So as I said, my. My two older brothers did. My, I have two older brothers and my father was a Golden Gloves national champion in boxing. Wow. Yeah. Golden Gloves Champion in 1939 and 1940 and very well known, you know, Japanese American athlete, Hawaii. What got him into that?

Robin: 12:32

What

David: 12:32

got him into that? You know, I, I'm not exactly sure. You know, it's, he's an interesting story because he was born in, born in Hilo, Hawaii, 1919. And you know, those are the days when the, the families are working on the plantations. All the, everybody worked. He had a family of, I don't re, I don't actually know the number of brothers and sisters he had because he was kind of the black sheep. And we, we didn't have relationships with them. Somewhere around 10 kids or something. My mother's side too. Wow. You know, because they're all on the plantation working. This is all rural agrarian stuff. Right. And he was the second oldest boy and I guess he didn't get along with his folks. And at the age of 14, I think I'm getting, I'm getting that right. He moved from, he went from on his own, from Hilo, Hawaii to Honolulu, you know, and back in the day, you gotta get on the boat and take a few days to get to Honolulu to make a living for himself. And so he, he started working at the, at the time it was a conservation, conservation corps, you know, Uhhuh and just started working to, to make a living. And while he was there, he picked up boxing. I think he picked up boxing when he was 14 or 15. And he happened to be a box in a boxing club that was pretty well known in Hawaii for producing great boxers. And by the time he was, let's say 18 or 19, he was winning matches in Hawaii and was part of a team that went to nationals and. One Golden Gloves. I mean it's, it's, it's just an amazing story. I, I, I've gone through all of his scrapbooks and albums and whatnot and made a little presentation for my family a couple years ago because I had the ti, you know, we're in Covid, have nothing to do. Right, right. Didn't Care. Did Covid project. Oh. But it was just an amazing, I it was great for, for somebody to have put it together. Yeah. And he never, he never talked about it. You know, he was, he had a, he had a heavy bag and a, and a speed bag at home, but he never, his policy was. He didn't want our his kids to do boxing because it is brutal. It's just a brutal thing. Right, of course. So what does he do? He gets his kids into jujitsu, right? So my two older brothers did a little stint in jujitsu and then they transferred to judo. And so because my older brothers did it when I came around, it was time. It's just time to go and do that. So So that's, that's, that's the inspiration. I mean, I, I, I was not, I was not inspired to do that at all. Like, I was not inspired to do piano because they did it, and whatever else they did I had to do, you know. So you did piano as well? I did piano as well. And so we're gonna end that story right there.

Robin: 15:05

Okay? So at this age, you know, alright, so how many years did we do judo? Which kind of brought us in. I'm looking to move from here up to high school and kind of seeing all, oh God, what's going on here? And where's our brain at this point? Do we have a direction we wanna walk in life at? Or are we just kind of taking it one day at

David: 15:22

a time? Well, you know, I had a direction when I was a kid and So I'm doing judo all this time. I gotta tell you, I, I'm, I'm hating it. I hated judo. I just hated judo with a passion And why. Well, listen, I mean, most people don't like judo until you get somewhat good because it's just, it's just tough to get slammed all the time. It's not fun, you know, so, right. And when you're a kid, you's either fun or not fun. And when, believe me, getting slammed and yelled at all the time is not, is not that fun. And, and I didn't, I was very fortunate to get better when I was 14 or 15, and then I really loved it. And then I, I can't, I couldn't be away from that. What kept you going back? I. Oh, it was my, my dad made me go, there's no question about it. You know, it's like dad says, okay, we're gonna go. I mean, I used to come up with all these excuses to not to go and he just wouldn't listen. Just threw me in the car and I went, okay. And oh, it was, he dragged me. But you know, the interesting thing is, around 15 or so, I got good, good, good. I was. I wa I took a, I was on a team that went to Japan for training, and I came back and I was, I, I didn't know it, you know, you know, you don't feel it, right? But apparently I was way better. And then that just started my climb to, to being, to being better. And, you know, in judo, I. Like many other martial arts and combat arts, I think things are not fun until you get good to some degree.

Robin: 16:46

Isn't that life?

David: 16:48

Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's true. But around that time, I'll give you an interesting story. You know, I, back to your question. I was planning to be a pre-med. I wa i, I wa i, I thought I was gonna be a medical doctor. And I remember sitting one day when I was around 15, because it's around this time, I was sitting there with my. My sister-in-law, my oldest brother's wife, and we're watching a TV show called Bob, the Bob Newhart show. Oh, I love the Bob Newhart show. Oh

Robin: 17:15

yeah, the

David: 17:16

dars. Yeah, the dars. That means you're old as as I am. You know. So yes, we're sitting watching the Bob Newhart show and my, my sister-in-law, Theo says to me, I hope you don't become a psychologist. And I said, yeah, who, who would wanna be a psychologist? Right. And so here I am. I became a psychologist, but I was a pre-med major. I went through I, I, after I graduated high school, I went to the University of Michigan. I started as, and what

Robin: 17:42

started, and I, I'm so sorry for all the interruptions, just filling out nooks and crannies. Where do you think this. Desire to do pre-med came from, I mean, where, I mean, your dad was, you know, a boxer.

David: 17:54

Yeah. I don't know. Well, he was a boxer. He turned pro and then the wars, world Wars II started. Right. And they, they didn't allow Japanese Americans to do things like to do, I. Istic things. And he always liked to work with his hands according to him. And he became a plumber. And so he was a journeyman plumber for, for all his, his working career. After that, in fact, af the war started and he became a plumber and he worked at Pearl Harbor, you know, so go figure, right? So

Robin: 18:19

And, and is it okay, I'm, I'm curious to go there a bit. Sure. Anything he experienced during those years that kind of forged him or kind of pass along any sorts of lessons to you? Because what I'm finding really interesting, I. Is, you know, the world is generally a dichotomy between wound collectors. People feel, vi feel victims and problem solvers who move forward, and it sounds like he was the type of guy that solved problems and move forward instead of collecting wounds and feeling slighted or, or getting retribution, maybe, I'm guessing. Well, I,

David: 18:55

I, I tell you what I mean of, that's one already, right? When he was a boxer and he couldn't, he had to, he was made to quit. And then, and then he became a plumber and right around the end of the war, and this is what was told to me by my par, both my parents and my brothers, when my oldest brother was one or two, and this is like 1945 or 1946 or so. Wow. My father working at a construction site, you, you, you, you know those wrecking balls that go back and forth? Yeah. Well, he was hit by one, eh? Yeah. And then apparently he was in Tripler Army Hospital for like six months in a body cast or some, something like that. I mean, gosh. Yeah. But, you know, it was, it was never. It was a story that he just told. It was never, never something that that crippled his mind so much that it became part of our, his, you know, our history. Right. It was like just that thing that happened. Right. And they thought he was gonna die, but he didn't. And so here he is. He just continued his work and I think that that kind of philosophy of life just kind of permeated my family. Yeah. Like my brothers are both like that. I'm like that. I mean, you know, you get an injury, so what, you get this So what I mean, just problem solve like you, you work, move on work problem. Yeah. You find, you find, I mean, there's a time for morning or being angry or whatever it is, but then there's time to pick yourself up and just go. Right, right. And that was part of his history. And I, you know, that's one of the, the, the ma one of the things that we learned about him, I think was just his attitude, which probably, and my mom is like that too. My, they, they, their attitudes permeated how we were brought up, I think. And all of us are just kind of like that, to tell you the truth. Yeah.

Robin: 20:38

Yeah. That's, that's incredible. All right, so I interrupted on the sidebar. Thank you. No, no problem. Moves

David: 20:43

forward. Yeah. So I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm going to the University of Michigan. I thought I was gonna be a, a physician. I did the pre-med, some of the pre-med requirement courses, you know, when I was a freshman and sophomore. I didn't, I didn't do great in them, but I was doing okay at them. And I was, I, you know, but I was at this point where I was questioning what I was doing. And so then a guy in the, in the dorms that I was living in who was a psych major, suggested to me, Hey, why don't you take a psych course? And I said, okay, I'll try. And I did. I think the first one I did was either my end of my sophomore year at the beginning of my junior year. So it's kind of late in my university career. Yeah. And I did. Well, I have no idea why I did well. And but then I just continued to take more psych courses at the end of my junior year. I, I had a good G p A but I didn't know what I was, I, I was, why I was doing what I was doing. Right. And so, but because I had a good g p a, one of the professors at Michigan in the psych department very well known professor Eugene Bernstein asked me, and I didn't know these guys were famous at the time. Right. I'm just a kid at school. Right, right. Because I'm in the field. Later on, I'm going, wow. He asked me. Wow. He what? You know what I mean? So, but he, he asked me to become part of the psychology, the undergraduate honors program, and I said, sure. Sounds great. What do I gotta do? And he says, well, you gotta do a study. And I said, well, sounds great. What is that? And he says, well, what are you interested in? And I told him I was, I I was, and I still am interested in how young children and infants can understand their world and their caregivers without understanding language. Mm. Because that's just an amazing ability that, that human infants have. And he said, wow, if you're interested in that, you gotta go and talk to that guy over there who happened to be one of the most famous social psychologists of all time. And I, I didn't know that either. And I went to, went to, his name is Bob Zions and I was fortunate to work with Professor Zions for, to do an honors thesis. And I completed my degree in psychology through his tutelage. I got into, I got into grad school in psychology because I thought I wanted to be a therapist. Right. And my friend.

Robin: 22:49

And did you, I'm so sorry. Did you stick with judo the entire time as well? I'm doing

David: 22:53

judo the entire time. Judo is the, is the activity that has fueled everything. Fueled everything. So you know, I could have been, I could've been doing studying or doing anything but else, but judo was a thing that, that kept me going. What

Robin: 23:06

do you think about it kept you going? Where did that fuel

David: 23:10

come from? There's, there's a lot, several reasons. First of all you know, the thing about it is I was really fortunate to have a great initial judo instructor. It's like anybody who's your first, first, first instructor of something that is very influential in your life and Yeah. His name is Fuji and Fuji Sensei. We call them Sensei. Right. Was my initial Judo instructor. In my judo life. I mean, I've been doing judo for 50 plus years and you know, when you look, when I look back, I had him from seven to 17, which is only only 10 years. But that, I mean, those are the most important 10 years. Right. Years. So, yeah. But his, you know, talk about philosophy. His philosophy, which, which wasn't, you know, these are things are not, Talked about, I mean, they're, they're talked a little bit. It's like my parents, right? It's just the way you live, right? And so part of doing judo with him was as you got better and as you were moving towards a promotion to Black Belt, you had to be helping others. And you had to be teaching children. And so no matter how good you were or not, as you were moving up, you had to donate your time to teaching kids classes. And so I did that since I was 14 or 15. The routine of being at a kid's class and then to my practice, that routine, while I was studying or supposedly studying and doing whatever I was doing, set a, set a set just gave me me mental time, discipline. It was just a time discipline that I had today. I mean, I have judo today, it's Friday. I have Judo at five o'clock, and so I need to get things done right before I, I go to Dojo, right? And so I've lived that life of time discipline. A century and it started back then. And he, he gave me that and he gave me, of course, the other discipline, which is just the perseverance. I mean, judo training is not easy. And back in the day, I hate to say that, but I'm, you know, back in the day now, it's a, it is a sport training. It's like sports training, which is also tough. But back in the day it was more, more brutal to, to, to lack, for lack of a better word. It was, it was more of a martial art, right. And so one develops the perseverance and, you know, that kind of discipline to, to, to, to get through anything that's tough. You know, one, as you know, any, anytime you get through some things like that, everything else is just a piece of cake, right? Right. Everything's a piece of cake. And so there's the mental discipline and the, and the, just the gut perseverance level that I learned from him and, you know, not, I'm, I'm, I'm thinking as we're talking because my parents, he was friends with my parents and You know he, they had, they had obviously had some level of trust because they, my parents started their three kids in judo under him. And because of that, you know, I, there was never a thought about, you know, I, I'd have another instructor, or I don't like this. I'll go someplace else. I mean, talk about an unspoken, unconscious level of trust that goes beyond words. Right there was that too, because no matter how awful the experiences were, I mean, I hated it and I hated him sometimes, but you know, there was that, there's that unspoken, unconscious trust that just, just, I, I mean it's hard for me to, to even verbalize. Yeah. But it was there and so I, I followed him and I learned those lessons, like, like I did with my parents and separately from all of this. This is also ringing another thing. I have two great brothers. One, one is now gone, but I have two great brothers and I've always thought, because later on, I mean I'm j jumping around as you know. I've got a PhD and I've always learned, I learned early on that p PhD is a great thing. Academic achievements are great things. I don't want to downplay that, but. In terms of trust. Talk about trust. You know, I've known throughout my life that if I ever had a problem, a personal problem, there were like four people I would go and talk to. Right? My dad, who barely made it through elementary school, my instr, my judo instructor, who was a high school grad, And, you know, not, no, not college person. My second brother and my two brothers, right? My second brother who barely made it through high school himself. And then my older brother, oldest brother, who, who went, did it, is a college grad and, and got a master's degree. But, but my point is, academic achievement has nothing to do with that, right? It's not what you've achieved and how much money you've got and whatever degree that trust about, if I'm really in a bad shape, who am I gonna talk to? Right? I've known this forever. It's, it's, it's gonna be those people. And

Robin: 27:56

Yeah, they're consistent. They're consistently there in your life. Yeah. I'm guessing they were maybe dropping truth bombs when you needed it because they cared deeply about you, but they allowed you to make the choices you needed to make because they weren't tied to your outcome. And they, they were unconditional with their proactive inserting themselves and being a a, a. Inspiration to you throughout

David: 28:20

life? Yes. If I could, if I had the ability to verbalize it like that, I would've just said it like that. But when you said the truth bombs, I remember the time when, when my one, one of my oldest brothers used to older brothers used to come and say, it's, Hey David, it's time to talk. I say, okay. And I'm going, oh my gosh. And we'd go in the room, he'd shut the door, and he closed to turn off the lights. And I, okay, here the, the truth bombs are coming. Right, right. And so but yeah, that, that was You're exactly right. It's, they're there unconditionally. Whatever it is, we're good or bad. And that's really what it is. That is powerful. And it reminds me, you know, I have so many associations when we're talking, I mean, one of the things about that that is so powerful about judo, going back to your, yeah. Your, your question is because as you know, when you're in the. Trenches of the dojo, trying to eke out a survive, eke out a breath, right? While you're being slammed and pinned and choked and locked and for hours and hours, day after day, week after week, you develop some pretty good, some pretty good friendships with people who go through that with you. Yeah. And yeah. And those, those friendships which are. Forged by trust. Yeah. On the mat through the hardships are, are lifetime. They're, they're just amazing. I, you know, there's, there's a, there's, there's not a lot, there's a few of them, but Right. You know, you do anything for these people, right? Yeah. That you've gone through this with you. And, and I want to tell you about one, one that happened for me as well. I mean, I, I've been very, I'm jumping, but I've been very fortunate to be a national coach for U S A Judo. Since since 1989 and you know, I've been to four Olympic games and 12 World Championships. And,

Robin: 30:12

and, and I'll back up one second. So how did you become the national coach for Judo? That's crazy.

David: 30:19

Incredible. I was running a little dojo here in Berkeley, in the East Bay of San Francisco area. And you know, the students were doing well, the students were. And when your students do well on the national stage, you get noticed as a coach. And so I was asked by the coaching staff at the time to join the coaching staff, so I'm

30:41

gonna

Robin: 30:41

stop again. Sure. Students just don't do well. It obviously comes from amazing coaching. What do you think you were doing that inspired them, that reverse optic, that inspired them to raise their bar and push beyond what they probably would've done with someone else? What did they see do?

David: 31:00

First of all, I wanna acknowledge that the. Primary person and all of that is the student. Right? It's that person. Because it's not easy to, when you're, again, when you're getting slammed all the time, it's not easy. You gotta be the one to pick yourself up and no one can pick yourself up for you. Right? Right. And so number one, it's them, but, but what I did to your question is I was always in the trenches with him. I, I would, whatever I asked them to do, I would mostly do whenever it came to the, the it's called, but the sparring time of judo, I was always there. I'm still there. I can barely walk some days, but once, you know, once we go on the mat and I've got, if we've got players or people who are just trained to be better, I mean, I, I'm on the mat with him, right? And and so I think that, Being on the mat there, creating the situation where it's, it's just awful for them, but they're growing. But then spending the time later on when you're, I mean, spending the time and being with them and showing that you care for them as an individuals and not, you just wanna slam'em all the time. I mean, you know, people, if you just wanna slam'em all the time, no one wants to be there. It's, it's all because you have a relationship and you gotta. Create that relationship. And I found that creating a relationship starts number one on the mat with them, working out with them, sweating with them, dying with them, but then going out and having a pizza later on and, and doing that for their lives. I mean, these people are, you know, doing years of, of judo that kind of training and. If they're willing to dedicate, I'm willing to dedicate back. And isn't

Robin: 32:38

it amazing that you were got to that level because of the behaviors you're now modeling with a combination of your dad and the coach and your family? Oh, sure. And that's that arc. Oh yeah.

David: 32:51

There's no question.

Robin: 32:51

They were for, they were forged so early on. What a, what a beautiful arc that was. Alright,

David: 32:57

so there's no question

Robin: 32:58

about that. Yeah. So keep going. I'm sorry. So not at all. That's how, that's how we got there. All right. So that's okay. Just keep.

David: 33:07

By the way, I love this conversation because even though you and I were revolving on the circles about behavioral analytics and interviewing and interrogation, here we are talking about Juah, which is great, you know, but,

Robin: 33:17

Well'cause it all, well think about it, it all revolves around the same thing. We're talking about all the behaviors that inspired the behavior, that inspired the choices we make in life, which is no question life, because most importantly it's so much, it's so enjoyable and I think inspirational to people, at least it is to me. When you see someone as accomplished as you, I mean, Olympic coach, world renowned nonverbal expert, PhD, obviously a great human being that people would love to have in their lives. That ARC started somewhere. Yeah, sure. And it's some, it's a place that we all can be. Yeah. And something that we can all achieve if we know, alright, things in my life are going in this direction. All I have to do is shift the rudder a little bit over here. Sure. And it can go another direction.

David: 34:02

Oh yeah. You know, it comes back all to those, those relationships. I hate to use the cliche, the, your, your, your moniker is a cliche, but forged by trust through all those difficulties and, and good times. I mean, it's just right being there, like you said, unconditionally for people and I. I, I, again, I was fortunate enough to be asked to be part of the coaching staff in 1989. And you know, as you know, you do tours and you go around, you take athletes to various teams. And in 1990, you know, and my students are doing well. In 1993, I was, I was part of the national coaching staff, and I be, I actually was asked to become the chairman of the coaching staff because there was a, there's vacancies and whatnot. 96 because I was the chairman of the coaching staff in 96. I was the head coach and the team leader for the Art Olympic team, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, I, I,

Robin: 34:51

I'm, boy, I could take forever going down each one just really quickly. Sure. Why do you think they chose you there? There's a lot of people competing for these positions. What do, what are people seeing throughout their lives when they see you?

David: 35:04

Well they can trust that they, of what they see because I am what I am and I'll, I'll speak my mind and you know, I'll give you an example. Like if you're in, if you're in the judo world, and, and I hate to say it, but you can, you can kind of tell whether a player's gonna make achi make a certain achievement or not in the next, in the next year or in the next half year. Then there. And so I was, I was okay with saying no to a lot of people and, and to a lot of people about a lot of things and saying yes when I meant it. And so, and I, when I, I say what I mean, and I mean what I say, and, and I followed up with, with, with whatever actions, whether it's training plans, policies, programs, or whatever that was. And I think it's just being that. Consistent and true to yourself and true to my thoughts that perhaps people saw that that allowed me to, you're right there. I mean, you, you gotta get voted in. Over, over competition to, to get a slot for, you're forging

Robin: 36:04

great health, forging great, healthy relationships by dropping loving truth bombs along the way. Oh, yeah. Loving truth bombs because you know, you must have

David: 36:12

a, you don't have to be, you're exactly right. I mean, you don't have to be nasty about it, you know, but you know, if you speak the truth and you can be professional and courteous and you all that kind of stuff. But I, you, you know, I 9 96 in 2000 and I went to Athens and I was a member of the international, I was a official of the International Juda Federation, but through all this time I've been training athletes at that level. My daughter's, one of them, she made the Beijing Olympic Games, which a great Oh my gosh. And training, your training your own kid from the time she started. I mean, I think we're the only Dojo that has a kid. Started and went to the Olympics with the same, and, and their parents in the same dojo, let alone parent child. Right. I mean, I think we're the only one in the country that ever that has ever done that. And there's a, there's a, there's a story about trust because I, you know, for, for her to have gone through everything that I made her go through, which I would've made anybody go through, but that, you know, at that level, it's, it's bordering on inhuman. Right. And she, she never, Never publicly doubted it. I dunno what she did outside, you know, but she went through it. And like, all, like so many others, like so many other athletes that I've, I've had the honor to work with and I, and one of them who's, I wanna say his name, but I didn't, I didn't, wasn't planning to talk about him, but I want to, and I, I usually ask him for permission before I use his name, but let's just call him Michael. Okay. Sounds great. Yeah, I, I was training Michael, who's, who happens to be the son of one of my best friend, well, Abe my best friend who's also in Judo and he, he, I was his competition coach. His dad was his Dojo coach, but I was his competition coach. And from, I don't know, early two thousands, through 2012, I, I went around the world with him. Coaching him in, in competition. And he would spend much time here in my house at training at my dojo as well to to do all this, to do the training for that kind of stuff. And, you know, training at that level is, is a, is a six day a week, three day three, two, or three training opportunities every day. I mean, you, it's a professional job basically, right? Right. And it's not easy. I mean, I had him on a strength program and a conditioning program, a nutrition issue, and then we've got a judo issue. I mean, to take one player at that level, you got a team of 10. Right. You know, and I'm directing the team of 10, and I'm with him on the mat all the time, as well as going around the world in competition. Good or bad, right or wrong, you know, like you say, it's unconditional. Whether, whether he is there when he, whether he wins or loses, you know, you're, you're always there, right? I'm jumping ahead because I, I since 2010 or 11 or so, I don't remember when I was initially diagnosed. Oh, it was earlier. I was diagnosed with kidney disease of unknown origin. Nobody in my family has it. I'm not diabetic. I didn't have, you know, all the other signs that produces kidney disease. Right? And it, and it it went, it went bad for over the course of like nine or 10 years to the point where I needed a, I needed a a, a, a transplant. It was either dialysis or transplant. Right. And because I'm such a stubborn person, I kept working out and kept working out and I, I was kept shocking my, my medical staff because I, you know, I, I'm always working out doing judo, but it came to the point where I needed to get a, to get a transplant and or, or get on dialysis. And I let my, you know, I have a small circle of people who friend, friends and family who I immediately trust. And I was very touched because, I mean, I don't broadcast, like I'm not the person that kind of broadcasts. And if they, if you are, that's, that's really fine. I'm just not like that. And I don't broadcast, Hey, you know, I'm looking for, for a kidney. You got one today, right. Kind of thing. So I just tell a few people, but I remember to this day, nine people stepped up and wanted to donate. Nine people wanted to donate, and then they went through the testing and whatnot. And to make a long story short, the, the one that I got was from my athlete, whose name is Mike. We're not blood related. He, he was a match and he donated, he gave me life. Wow. This is after he was, he, he had competed. I mean, he was done competing and Right on, on, you know, working and he has his own dojo. And talk about a story of trust. Yeah. After, after, you know, giving, I guess I, I was giving, but that's just what I do and. Did he turn around and give back? I mean, and you know, the thing about it is there was a time when we were all testing and we were all going down the road to, okay, we're gonna do it. And it narrowed down to him because he was the best match. He said, yeah, no problem. And, and there was a time when the hospital asked him, you know, we could do this mix match thing where he could donate, just make an open donation and then I could get a slightly better match from somebody else. He said, Nope. I wanna give it to him. Right. And, and we actually were, we're, we scheduled it, actually we were in August of 2016. Wow. We were just talking, he wanted to do something in November and I said, okay, so let's get, we picked a date and I told the hospital and, and you know, he showed up the, we, I did it on a Friday. He showed up on Wednesday and we went, we were, we worked out on Wednesday together and And we're sitting there sweating on the, afterward we took, we took a picture and Friday we walked into the hotel the, not a ho hospital. Right, right. He gave me his kidney. It's just an amazing thing and I, I've cherished it ever since. And he's healthy, which is really great, but. After, after I talked with you the last time to the pre-call, I, I would, like I said, you've been in my head. Your, and the topic, your topic has been in head. I dunno about you, but you, your topic has been in my head and I thought, wow. Of, of any story I could tell about trust of that was forged and given Yeah. That, that's gotta, for me, that's gotta be it because, I must have done something right and he's done something right. I, I don't know what it is, stars aligned or something, but

Robin: 42:22

no, it's so I know you'll never give you the credit that others will give you because of who you are, but I'll give you the credit. It's because of you. One of my other favorite authors is Robin Sharma. He wrote the, one of the great bestsellers the monkey who sold his Ferrari, and one of his books I read recently. He has a great question. I ask this a lot of the courses I give. And besides, what will you do in your last five hours on this planet? I. And this isn't like the bucket list question. It says you literally have five hours left. What do you do? And inevitably it's spend time with family, having a great conversation with the people you trust and have good, healthy relationships with. But his is a, a next step. Further beyond that five hours is who will cry when you die? And you just listed at least nine people. Most have four. Yeah, that's the average, believe it or not. And so that just shows extremely life well live in because of this arc that you have. Yeah. Because of how you take care of others. Because, and this'll bring us back to the center theme, which goes to you. You, you've used judo as a way to get close. You've used judo to touch lives, to be of service, which your first sensei taught you. But also to heal pain. So can you bring that all together for us? So how does, what did you learn about nonverbal behavior from judo and how does that translate into healing, seeing and healing the pain in others you think?

David: 43:55

Well, judo has so many lessons, and with regard to the nonverbal behavior, I mean, judo is great because it's all behavioral. Everything one does is behavioral and judo is unique among martial arts because we actually grip each other, right? And because of this grip, which is also non-verbal, right? This grip, we have communication and we can communicate with each other. And because of that non-verbal communication, whether it's in the feel or even the, the sense the, the, I don't know whether it's fear modes or their face, or, it's definitely, certainly their posture. The way a person carries themselves, you know, you, you know, immediately when, or I've known immediately when a person's afraid. Or they're not. They're sad. What's

Robin: 44:43

that? So what does that feel like? So David, you have decades of reps that I know. I keep trying to have you place labels and meanings on this thing that's become extremely intuitive to you because you have a mastery level because of all these reps. What do you think that is? That you know you're translating when, when you just get that touch that you can. Feel that pain. You can feel that insecurity. You can feel the fear or you can feel the confidence. You can feel, yes, they're about to explode what it is, you know. Can, are you able to dis dissect any of that into what you're actually sensing?

David: 45:17

I'm not sure whether I can do that to tell you the truth. I, I certainly sense it. It's very strong and I, I know why I sense it, which is because judo like many other things, you know, you, you are. For lack of a better term, psychologically naked. Right. You know, it's just you and somebody else, or you and yourself against the, the wall. The wall that you, you, that we all have and that we most of us back down for from, because we want to protect our sense of self somehow. And you know, at least the way I train it is you go up the wall to the wall every day and you, you climb. You climb, you, you can fall down. You know, in Japanese there's a saying, fall down seven times, stand up eight times. And it's literally like that every day. And when you do that every day you can, you can push the wall back, you can get over that wall many times. And when you can get, we can, when you can manipulate the wall, you become a really strong person. But most people, Cannot and do not want to deal with the wall. But judo, the way we do it gets people to that psychological wall. And thus, when you're there and you can, you can grip somebody up, it's, you just feel how they are at that moment. And you, it's like knowing their inner sense. I mean, it's whether they're confident or not, they, they're arrogant or not. They're afraid or not. And my job, Is to know what it is, not, not for my students anyway, so that I can help them overcome that. I want everybody to be a, the, the better person, which means to be that stronger person and I'll, I'll get'em to that place not because I, I'm, I'm say sadistic, you know, if it's because I want them to be able to. To manage that part of that difficulty. And you can feel it. I mean, I, I, you can feel it. And, and even if I don't touch somebody, I can watch somebody. I can see that. Right. And the, and the way they, the, they carry themselves or the way they move, the way they stand. You, it's, it's very clear to me and it's all those, I'm, I'm now verbalizing what I think I'm, what I think I do. But it's all, it's all behavioral analysis at that point. And, and that's what, that's what I think is the, is the. Is the best thing about judo, which is, which is, I mean, there's the physical aspects and all that, but helping you grow as a, as a internally strong person like that, it has so much benefits. And that's what I think we've been trying to do. I've been trying to do. No doubt.

Robin: 47:57

So when you see the pain, what do you do about it? How can you help people through it?

David: 48:04

Well, it's not easy, number one. I think I'm going back to what you had. Thankfully labeled for me about my, my upbringing, which is being there unconditionally for people. Mm-hmm. No matter what they do, no matter whether they're successful at it or not, you're always there and you're there for them, whether you're on the mat or not off the mat. I mean like peop I have judo. Students who are in their families will. Call me and talk to me about school, about personal issues, about whatever it is. And you're there for them. You're just, you're just there for them, right? They're willing to give everything. I'm willing to give everything. I mean, really, that's what it is. My time for them doesn't stop when practice ends. My, you know, they're willing to give, I'm willing to give, I'm, and I'm willing to give. And I think they're willing to give. I think it's a reciprocal thing, you know, so, but I think you, you labeled it, I think it's that unconditional presence for good or bad. I, I bring the bread, right? I bring the bread, meaning I bring, I bring the, I bring them to the wall. And so but I bring it because I want them to get over it, you know? What do you think

Robin: 49:10

hinders people from doing that these days? From being present?

David: 49:20

My first thought was Technology and social media, but I think there's something deeper than that. I think there's, I think there's a thing in society today, which is more of an inner focus on whatever feels good rather than serving others in a deeper way. You know, and I, I, I think that, I, I think I'm a, what, how I think about things is as much a product of the time in the late fifties and early sixties and seventies. Growing up during that time with, with my, you know, basically immigrant families working in the plantation. Right. That, that led me to think like that. But it's not just me. I mean, I know so many people in that who are brought up in those, those years that just think differently. I mean, it's not just a gen, every generation has its own thing. But I think there's a big difference between that generation and, and now, you know, kids now, Society now is very different, and I think there's, there's not as much of a focus of, of service, right. I think service is the issue. Yeah.

Robin: 50:24

I think part of that service is the, and this arc that we're seeing in the, what's going on now in the world is, at least I'm seeing it is a. Challenge that people are having with problem solving. Yeah. And they're, they're, and so what, what would you suggest that people can do, utilizing the skills, tools, and techniques as you developed over these years? Maybe one or two things that can maybe start incorporating their lives at any age, but especially young, how can people start being better problem solvers so that we're not going from zero to a hundred or zero to hate,

David: 50:57

well, so I have a that's a great question and I have a different, what I think is probably a different take on that is It's, it starts with an attitude and it's an attitude that I start with every day. I don't know whether people around me can, will actually believe it or not, because they see, you know, they see me in different contexts, but there's an attitude I start with every day, which is how, how can I be selfless today? How can I, I don't wanna say serve others because it starts, I think, with being selfless. All that stuff you just mentioned, self about ego and all that stuff starts because we, we put ourself first, right? Whatever our fragile or strong sense of self, that becomes first. And thus we have all these emotional reactions and pain that becomes impediments to our being, to our being successful and from serving others well, and I think it starts with, for me today, and if you ask me this question, maybe 10 years ago, I would've thought about it differently. But today, here we are today and it starts for me of how to be, how starting every day. How to be selfless starting and before I talk to you and before I click the Zoom, I take a moment and think, how can I be selfless? How can I interact with Robin so I can be selfless to give a story that can help others? I mean, it's try. I try to do that before, before I talk to everybody and do or do anything. And that's how you be present? I think so. I think that's how I do it anyway. Yeah, that is, I try to, and I'm not successful at it each time, but. Beautiful. You know, I try

Robin: 52:27

David, that's absolutely beautiful that I'm so, I'm so glad you shared that. That is so poetic and so perfectly stated. David, I, we could go on for hours, but we can't, I'm sorry. What, if anything, would you have liked me to have asked you that I didn't get a chance to ask? You don't, you wanted to make sure you shared, if anything, before we sign off?

David: 52:51

I don't think there's anything because this has been of, of the many and I'm very fortunate about that podcast and talks I've, I've done, I don't think I've ever had a discussion like this and which gets to the, what I think is the point of everything, the point of living, the point of, you know, work, working in law enforcement, the point of being a teacher, the point of. Everything, which is, is the topic that we talked about today. And so, yeah, I don't, we could talk more about what we talked about today, but I think, I don't know if there's a different question to tell you the truth, you know?

Robin: 53:29

Awesome. David, where can people go to find out more about you and bring you into their lives so that they can learn more about the most important thing, and like you said, is how to be selfless and be of service.

David: 53:40

Well, if you wanna learn more about the behavioral analysis stuff, it's, it's my company, it's www.huel.com, h u m i n t e l l. Wanna learn more about my, my Dojo And I have a wonderful set of instructors, and I'm not the head instructor anymore. It's the East Bay Judo Institute. It's www e. But if you're, if anybody's ever in the area and you want to come down and there's nothing like watching it, right? There's nothing like watching it and be, and seeing the, the thing un the, the pra, the practice unfold. It's, it's just an amazing thing. So if you're ever in the area, in the San Francisco Bay Area, look us up. I.

Robin: 54:25

And it's all in the show notes as always, folks. David, I can't thank you enough for dropping beautiful truth bombs on us all today and being such an inspiration. The service you give to our society is tremendous and, and we didn't even cover all the other areas that you do for law enforcement, for our nation, for the world at large. So I just profoundly thank you for all you do and coming on and give us a small glimpse in this beautiful arc of

David: 54:52

your life. Thank you so much for inviting me and thank you for allowing me to, to talk about these topics that I never, generally never talk about with anybody else, and I'm so happy to have done it. And thank you for your service and everybody else in your audience as well. Thank you.

Robin: 55:08

Thank you for tuning into another episode of Forge By Trust. Remember, if you want to forge trust, it's not how you make people feel about you that matters. It's how you make them feel about themselves. If you're interested in more information about how it can help you forge your own trust, building communication, interpersonal strategies as your coach, a trusted advisor or a speaker for your organization, Please visit my website@www.peopleformula.com. See you next time on Forged By Trust.