Facing Hearts of Darkness w/ Jana Monroe

😃🌟 Get ready for an exhilarating episode of Forged by Trust as we shine the spotlight on the remarkable life of Jana Monroe, one of the first FBI Female Profilers and the CEO of JDMonroe Enterprises.

Join us as we uncover the secrets behind Jana's path to becoming one of the first female profilers in the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit. From the challenges she faced to the groundbreaking accomplishments she achieved, her story is one of perseverance and breaking down barriers.

But that's just the beginning! We'll also explore the intense world of criminal profiling and its impact on popular culture. Discover how Jana's expertise influenced the iconic character Clarisse Starling in the spine-chilling movie "Silence of the Lambs," as she coached none other than Jodie Foster herself.

We'll dive into the gritty realities of Jana's work, as she faced down hearts of darkness and dealt with the continuous exposure to evil deeds. Learn how her experiences shaped her approach to profiling and the profound impact it had on her life.

Jana's expertise extends beyond the field, and we'll discuss the application of profiling to all aspects of our lives. From understanding human behavior to making informed decisions, Jana's insights will leave you with a fresh perspective on how to navigate the complexities of the world around us.

So, get ready for a thrilling ride as we unravel the captivating tales from Jana's time with the FBI. From her groundbreaking achievements as a female profiler to her influence on popular culture, this episode is packed with jaw-dropping moments and eye-opening discussions.

🌟 Here's a sneak peek at the topics we'll be exploring:

1. Breaking Barriers: The path to becoming one of the first female profilers in the FBI's Behavioral Analysis Unit.
2. Behind the Scenes: Coaching Jodie Foster for her role as Clarisse Starling in "Silence of the Lambs" and the impact it had on the film.
3. Facing Darkness: Confronting the hearts of darkness and the toll it takes on those exposed to evil deeds.
4. Applying Profiling: How profiling can be applied to all aspects of our lives, from understanding human behavior to making informed decisions.

Get ready to be inspired, captivated, and enlightened as we journey through the thrilling world of Jana's FBI career. This is an episode you won't want to miss!

👉 Check Out Jana and Her Compelling New Book

Pre-Order my Latest Book: "Unbreakable Alliances: A Spy Recruiters Authoritative Guide to Cultivating Powerful & Lasting Connections" HERE

Unlocking the Power of Trust: Keynote Speaker Robin Dreeke Shares Secrets to Creating Allies - Robin is the former Chief of the FBI's Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program. With over 30 years of experience in recruiting spies and building trust, Robin is the world-renowned speaker you need. Don't miss out on the opportunity to learn from a true expert. Contact us now to book your event! Click HERE to book a time to chat.

🤔 Take Robin's FREE YouTube Keys to Communication Online Course HERE.

😃 Check out Robin's Speaking, and Training Services HERE.

Transcript

Jana: 0:06

When I started looking and getting so interested in human behavior and serial killers, it's compelling and repulsive at the same time

Robin: 0:15

Welcome to the Forged by Trust podcast. I'm your host, Robin Dreeke professional speaker, former us Marine spy recruiter, best-selling author, and your trust and communication expert coming up next on the Forged by Trust podcast.

Jana: 0:27

When I started looking and getting so interested in human behavior and serial killers, it's compelling and repulsive at the same time. Dr. Hannibal Lecter and I think Anthony Hopkins did a fabulous job. He actually gives me the creeps with the voice that he has and the way he doesn't blink.

Robin: 0:47

The Forged by Trust podcast is a show where we explore the essential skill of forging trust for building an innovative culture and exceptional leadership. Join us as we delve into the behavior skills and communication techniques required for success and learn from the best in the industry. Our guests include spies, spy recruiters, master interrogators, best selling authors, thought leaders, and innovators who will share their insights on building teams, Partnerships and exceptional leadership by Forging Trust. Today's episode facing hearts of darkness is with the very first female FBI profiler coach to academy. Award-winning Jodie foster in silence of the lambs and my good friend, gentlemen, RO. Jenna is the CEO of J D Monroe enterprises, where she provides consulting services on security matters, leadership and transitioning from the public sector to private industry. She's a renowned public speaker and has recently published her book, hearts of darkness, serial killers, the behavioral science unit, my life as a woman in the FBI. Jen is impressive career began in law enforcement, including the federal bureau of investigation, where she spent 22 years in various field investigative and operational roles. Notably, she served as a criminal profiler at Quantico, Virginia becoming one of the first female profilers in the FBI's behavioral analysis unit. Uh, her expertise even influenced popular culture as she advised Jodie foster and her role is Clarice Starling in the movie. Silence of the lambs. Jana reached a pinnacle of her fBI career as one of the few women in the executive leadership ranks serving as special agent in charge in Los Angeles, California. And Phoenix, Arizona. And as the first assistant director of the FBI cyber division 30 episode today, we talk about the path to becoming the first female FBI profiler. Facing down hearts of darkness. Coaching Jodie foster for silence of the lambs, the impact of continued exposure to evil deeds and applying profiling to all aspects of our life. Jana, oh my gosh, all I want to do is bow down and thank you for coming on Forged by Trust because I just got done reading your book and It is a true testament and testimonial to an amazing career and amazing life. So thank you so much for coming on and sharing yourself, your amazing background, and this memoir with the

Jana: 2:59

world. Thank you, Robin. Thank you very much.

Robin: 3:04

Absolutely, and also a shout out to our great friend Joe Navarro who put us in touch, and Joe has been a dear friend of mine for years, even longer for you I know, and he is this great inspirational human being that just is a great connector of phenomenal human beings. So I thank him profusely for putting us in touch because in you I found another soulmate of commiserate passions in life of solving life's most challenging problems. One of the most common questions I get asked as a former B. O. guy is, Hey, how do I get into the B. S. U.? How do I get part of the profilers and all that? which was part of your major life arc. But as I'm going through your book and your incredible career, I mean, from law enforcement to the bureau, to being a first female member of the BSU, to training and working and mentoring Jody Foster in Science of the Lambs, and then beyond BSU with your amazing career rising up into executive management in the FBI. Amazing cases you were part of in all walks of our lives and what you did during 9 11. I mean, it's just incredible. There's one thing you didn't really talk about, though, in the book., but for what you did inside of law enforcement, both as a local law enforcement officer and inside the FBI in, you know, the time period that you were, seventies and eighties, it took a lot of courage. I mean, you had a lot of courage to face the most challenging situations, both institutionally, societally, and personally. Who or what do you think was that early spark of courage that gave you that fortitude to keep pressing forward in all these areas that typically weren't pressed forward by anyone like you before?

Jana: 4:51

Great question, Robin. You know, I think in retrospect, I really didn't know what that was. It was like it was a part of my DNA. And I always felt very strongly that if it was something within my skill set, right, that I could do it. And I joke and say, if I wanted to be an opera singer, I would be way out of luck. Okay, because that, that is not one of my skill sets. But I would take a look at the law enforcement world and the problem solving and the types of work and the function that it was. And I thought, I can do that. I know how to do that. And I continued to prepare myself by reading and getting educated shadowing people. So I knew, I knew what it was that I wanted to do, but I don't want to get into, you know, really personal stuff, but I do believe now in retrospect, it was, it was God saying, this is your calling and this is what you need to do.

Robin: 5:40

You happen to remember all those years ago, because we can really kind of identify those times, people, places, or a mixture of a bunch of, as Neil deGrasse Tyson calls it, you know, that primordial soup of a human being earlier on that kind of gives us that inspiration to be that problem solver, to give us, that genetic oomph, because we have the genetics and biology we were born with, but also we have the nurture part, which kind of gives a little extra oomph. Any idea what it was earlier in life that made you a problem solver, made you so passionate about doing just that, solving these challenging problems?

Jana: 6:17

Well, I think for me, and I say this, I had two callings very strongly when I was younger. And one of them is, I love this country. I love that we're a country and a nation of laws and liberties. And I wanted to Somehow help maintain that balance and my little tiny piece of the pie, if I could do that, and I hate bullies. I hate people who prey on or pick on other people. And I thought, how can I serve both of those callings? And it seemed like law enforcement was the you know, to protect and serve, that was the perfect industry for that.

Robin: 6:49

All right, so here you are, you're, you moved to California, you're watching movies growing up, and so what do we think we wanted to be at that point in time, like teenage years? Did you think you were going to go into law enforcement? What was our path? We're going to start walking.

Jana: 7:03

Okay, so my path is, as I have learned, rather odd because it was like about age 13. When, and I think it probably was watching some of the movies and we joke about Clint Eastwood, it's not like that he's some icon, but since my dad was a projectionist and ran these double features, I would see, I'd see all the Clint Eastwood movies over and over again. And it was that and watching some of the, the police shows that gave me that motivation, that inspiration. It was like, wow, this could be my calling and also something exciting. It was something that I wanted to do. So I was literally about 13 when this hit me and I never wavered. And there's so many young people, you know, that are like, today I want to be a nurse, next month I want to be an astronaut, maybe I'm going to be a writer. It's really that experimental stage. I, I didn't go through that.

Robin: 7:52

I definitely saw that throughout your book, is that you never wavered in times throughout your career where other people would walk away, kind of give up, maybe follow a different line. You just kept pressing and that was such a great part of your memoir and your book is the fact that you were very transparent with some challenges that you faced in the Bureau. And again, not a negative type of thing necessarily, as Joe Navarro says, you weren't a wound collector, you're a problem solver, and you just kept forging forward because you just never wavered. All right, so you, you found this passion earlier in life. So what came next? Where'd you go to school?

Jana: 8:28

I went to school, I was living in Long Beach, California, and when I graduated from high school I knew, you know, again, what I wanted to do, and I, I went to this fair, a college fair, you know, like a job fair sort of thing, and I, this nice FBI guy, well, actually, he wasn't really that nice I was asked, Because I went up and asked him, you know, what courses do I need to make myself more competitive?'cause I want to get into the F B I and

Robin: 8:52

his responsibility. So you knew back, so you knew back then you wanted to do that and around what year was this? You don't have to pinpoint it too much if you don't want,

Jana: 8:58

I'll be 105 this year. Robin. Thank you. This, this was in the 1976 and I had actually asked him before about this and it was in 72 when Mr. Hoover, J. Edgar Hoover, the former director of the FBI, had not passed away. And it was actually after he died in 72 and then in 1973 that there was the class action suits to allow women to be agents. But apparently this gentleman at the job fair, this agent, didn't know that. So he said, yeah, you can be a secretary or what they called a roto clerk, which was like a

Robin: 9:31

file clerk. Oh my gosh. Yes, I remember.

Jana: 9:33

Yeah, you can, you can do that. And he just said, well, you'll never be qualified because you're a female and we don't allow females to be agents. So I, I took the path from that. I went and I was a probation officer for a while and the caseloads again, in Southern California, they were so high. It was just kind of a recipe for not having success. So I looked into the police department and I became a police officer in Chino, California. Yep. And it was from there. I stayed there. I worked a lot of juvenile game cases at that point in time. But I stayed there a little longer than I anticipated because I thought I was getting some good experience and I actually enjoyed it, but the FBI was still calling. So that's when I decided to apply for the FBI.

Robin: 10:18

I mean, him kind of being super discouraging with a negative remark, you seem to have faced that a lot earlier in your career and maybe even throughout, where you're discouraged to do something because of your gender. How did you take that back then? And again, you seemed to press forward regardless.

Jana: 10:35

I absorbed it. It did resonate. I got it. And you're right. There was no welcome wagon, right on any of these places, including the police department. But again, I was comfortable and I might even say confident. That I could do the job. And when I got to the FBI, I think the military and law enforcement are great backgrounds for going into the FBI. I know under the Modified or Diversified, we had people who had been, you know, attorneys or librarians, I mean, the whole gamut, a couple of musicians. I think that transition was more difficult for them in the academy, where for me, and I'd already been through one, and it was, you know, a federal emphasis, but it was very similar. So yeah, I, I did not have a lot of welcomes and here let me be your mentor and, and, you know, why don't we invite you to lunch. I didn't have that, but I became very assertive, not aggressive or obnoxious. I don't, you know, sometimes you have to be aggressive depending on what you're doing, but assertive, Professionally, inviting myself to lunch with people inviting myself on arrests, volunteering to be that person that, you know, watched the door, the, the jobs that really nobody wanted to do. Right. I, I volunteered for those.

Robin: 11:48

What gave you that confidence so early in life?

Jana: 11:53

You're asking me to dig deep, which I like.

Robin: 11:56

that's what makes you so remarkable. You did all these things and faced all these challenges. And you said it yourself, I had the confidence. Well, where'd that come from?

Jana: 12:06

Well, I am extremely resilient. And I do have feelings, and I can get my feelings hurt, but it was kind of innate in me. It's like, okay, have your little pity party or whatever your emotional response is, Jan. I did a lot of soliloquy with myself. It's like, okay, pick yourself up, girl. You know, get back in there and do that because I wanted a dream, which I'll say, you know, my law enforcement career dream, to become a goal, to become a reality. And I somehow innately knew that if I didn't pursue, if I didn't persevere or have the tenacity to do that, it wasn't going to happen. So I wish I could give you, you know, an answer that it was like reading so and so's book or seeing this and I had an epiphany and then it it really wasn't like that.

Robin: 12:56

All right. So, we're on the law enforcement. We're in Chino. And we start seeing some horrific things. As I remember, you describe your first car wreck you go upon, and the first time you see some brain on the road. Where do you think it gave you that resiliency to keep pressing forward? You make it sound like it wasn't affecting you, but it had to be affecting you. I know later on in the book, you describe how it did, but what allowed you to kind of keep pressing forward and be fascinated by that, and which eventually led you to be applying to and getting invited to become part of the BSU, do you think? Well, when you think

Jana: 13:33

of, obviously, you can't make a traffic, a horrific traffic accident analogous to some of the things that I worked on in the behavioral science. But seeing that, it was dramatic and traumatic to me to, to see how violent that was, and these people, you know, their life was over in an instant. But I thought, I'll be able to, to help, you know, I, I can help if I do this sort of work. That's when you look at the aftermath of it, the victims and that ripple effect. Right? So not just the people that were impacted and were in the car accident, but their loved ones, their friends, and, and that whole ripple effect. When I started looking and getting so interested in human behavior and serial killers, I think so many of us, it's compelling and repulsive at the same time. And I had this real strong desire to try and understand what made them do that. And so it, it, one kind of just led to the other, when you're looking at something so violent and, and vitriolic, it was just like, yeah, maybe I can lend some help here if I figured, if I learn

Robin: 14:38

how to help. Yeah, what a, what a theme throughout your life that you just said was, I just figured there's something I can do to help.

Jana: 14:46

Yeah, I'm very mission oriented. I love mission. And I don't want to make it sound too altruistic, but I really do think we human beings were put here to, you know, to help each other to try and, and if you have something that you know, and somebody else doesn't know you know, share that.

Robin: 15:04

You do such a great job of saying, Hey, it's not just flipping a switch and studying this and you get into BSU, there's a path here. And it's a path of a life of reps, of a personality type of experiences that starts early on that kind of forges that arc, which might give us that opportunity. So I kind of want to flesh some of those things out. Yeah,

Jana: 15:23

well then let's not take the journey to Quantico and I'll say I graduated and then my first office was Albuquerque, New Mexico, and I wasn't even sure how, when, when I opened up my envelope when they at the academy and they tell you where you're going I'm embarrassed to say I didn't know Albuquerque was spelled that way. And then I realized, oh yeah, Albuquerque, it's in New Mexico. Okay, got it. And let's

Robin: 15:48

pause there a second because you did a good job of explaining how you got assigned Albuquerque because a lot of people don't understand how agents get assigned anywhere in the country. And you had a background that kind of you think guided, guided headquarters that decide to place you in Albuquerque.

Jana: 16:04

Well, yeah, plus the fact, you know, that the Bureau teases you and it's like, okay, where do you want to go? And then they don't send you there. But at least they put me in the region of the country, which, which was the West. But I think my law enforcement background was helpful in that because there was a lot, they had a lot of what they called resident agencies that were kind of out in the middle of nowhere. And then Indian reservation, Native American Indian reservation. Which was not pleasant work in the fact that it's unfortunate, but a lot of the crimes out there were, were incest and homicide, a lot of alcohol related crimes out in that area. So, I, I think that led that, you know, since I had worked similar types of things, they felt I could handle that, and there were only two other females in the whole division at the time.

Robin: 16:51

That's just crazy and amazing. All right, so we're out in New Mexico. What kind of things did we learn about ourselves at this point, you think?

Jana: 16:59

Well, for me, I loved it instantly. I loved I don't want to call it really autonomy, but I always said the, the Bureau, the FBI gives you, to hang yourself. And by that, I mean, they allowed you some autonomy compared to some of the things I saw in corporate America, my friends that we're working with, you know, and accountants that were, they'd have to they had like a 15 minute break and they had to be right back at the desk and, you know, that kind of thing. So I, I really enjoyed the work, but they had me go to Gallup, New Mexico. which is considered a hardship area because of the work, and at the time, it's a little better, and it wasn't really close to anything, the schools weren't great, so for families, it was not considered an ideal location, but doing the work out at Gallup, like I mentioned, some of the, you know, the incest cases and some of these others I really, it was gritty work, and I got into it. The thing that was a little disappointing is that in the Indian Nation, in the BIA, they didn't really recognize a female as being in charge of anything. So I had my work cut out for me there, being able to get them to cooperate with me and actually, you know, give me information instead of wanting to give it to one of my male counterparts. I think

Robin: 18:12

we've all seen aspects of this in different parts of life, no matter what minority we're part of. A lot of times, When people face this kind of resistance, they can either get angry, or they can do something about it, or they keep moving forward. I mean, there's lots of different ways people respond. You seem to, throughout your narration of this, kind of take it in stride and just keep pressing forward. What enabled you to do that without getting angry, resentful, or all those negative emotions that actually don't help the situation and keep positive, you think?

Jana: 18:46

Oh, you're so correct. Negative emotions don't help anything, and I think being cognizant of that, I make a concerted effort to stay positive. I'm certainly not a Pollyanna, if people know what that is. I've had numerous doses of reality, so I get it, but we have, Robin, we've got one life to live, at least as far as I know, and I like to make things as positive as possible. Like I said, I'm realistic, and when there's negative, I acknowledge it, and I know it. but I don't dwell in it. And I think if people keep that at the forefront old expression, you know, glass half full or glass half empty, how are you looking at that? I choose to look at it glass half full because of all the evil that I have seen, and it's really, if you look at all the people that are in the world, all the evil that I have seen, Of the few, it's helped me recognize the goodness of the many. I'm very people oriented and although we all have our idiosyncrasies, we have, you know, the, the scale of normal, people say, well, that's normal. That's a big scale, but fortunately, most of us are not serial killers and don't even understand that. So I think many people have great intentions. I like to keep focused on that.

Robin: 20:00

So human behavior is something you've been getting a deep exposure to at this point in your career for quite a period of time and some definitely negative ones. And you're not on part of the BSU yet, we'll get, we're moving up to that. Have you started kind of seeing or were you cognizant of the fact that you're starting to be able to profile bad actors, profile evil? Have you started doing that at this point

Jana: 20:20

yet? Yes, and I did, I did a lot of self education by reading as much as I could. My, my good time reading, if you will, was all serial killer and human behavior related. Come in and served a search warrant on my house, they'd be going, Oh my gosh, what is this? So I was, was educating and doing that part of it, but I believe all humans have that ability to profile. It's just how aware of it, you know, for situational awareness and had honed in on it. So I was starting to hone in on it at that time and using it for, you know, informants people that I was interviewing, some of my, some of my fellow agents knowing what kind of a reaction I might get out of them. So yeah, I was becoming far more aware that not only was I using the ability that I had, but that I was actually honing in on it better, better than I had been previously.

Robin: 21:09

You, you just came up with it right there when you're talking about the, the curiosity to con to explore and self educate, which requires a great amount of humility and curiosity combined. And that's part of the dichotomies that I love in life. And that's the most challenging dichotomy, which is confidence with humility. Because without the humility, we can't be a great learner. Where do you think that your knowledge, because that's, that's a very mature dichotomy to be able to master and balance that confidence with that humility. Where do you think that started originating from?

Jana: 21:45

Well, and I know, you know, the term obviously servant leadership. And I think that's what is required to have servant leadership. And I believe we are here to serve others, right? I think growing up, my parents were older when they had me. And I was kind of an old soul. I, I used to tell my parents they smoked, and it's not, I was like, seven or eight, that's not good for you, ba, and I would say, you know, this is what people have said about this, I, at a very early age, would I was a rule follower. So it, it, to me just kind of made sense. I was very practical and pragmatic at that point in time. So I guess I'm still waiting for my childhood. I hope I have one someday. You skipped right over it. Yeah, I skipped right

Robin: 22:29

over. Remember what kind of humbling moments you've had at this point? You've had to have had some, or maybe not, because I mean, you're doing some big stuff, but again, I'm still so impressed with the humility you had to, which comes from humbling moments sometimes, but maybe not.

Jana: 22:45

Oh, I had plenty of humbling moments. And that to me kind of goes back to one of my quotes, which I won't go into the whole thing, but the man in the arena, right? So you're going to have stuff happen. And that's one of the things that I feel so strongly about people get either analysis, paralysis, or they're so afraid of failure or making a mistake or having something happen. I was not afraid of that. And I had my nose broken making an arrest once somebody who didn't want to be arrested. I got I learned very quickly not to wear hoop earrings, when you have a shoulder bag on and got that caught as I was serving an arrest warrant and couldn't get the purse out of my earring. I mean, we could go on and on with faux pas and, and never a mistake of the heart on my part, I don't think, but mistakes of the mind and mistakes because, you know, you're, you're inexperienced,

Robin: 23:38

right? I love that. Mistake of the heart. Never a mistake of the heart.

Jana: 23:42

Opportunities. Now, if you start doing the same thing again, right? You don't learn from it, then, then that's a problem.

Robin: 23:49

All right. So we had our first reps in the Bureau out in no man's land. What came

Jana: 23:53

next? Okay, so then Dale Monroe my husband, we got married, he was in the Tampa division, I was in Albuquerque the Bureau then transferred me to Tampa. I had great experience there, I was the only female on what we called at the time, the reactive squad, the criminal.

Robin: 24:09

Okay, I gotta stop. I had a great experience there. I'm the only female in the reactive squad. And how did you get on that squad? What did you have to do to get on that squad? Because you kind of gloss over, Oh, I just got on the squad. Some effort there.

Jana: 24:25

Yeah, there's some effort there, and then at the next office, which we went to was Washington Field Office, same, same kind of situation, but I went into, which, this doesn't make you popular, but I went into the special agent in charge, because they were going to put me on surveillance, surveillance squad, nothing wrong with that, nothing wrong with that, but I didn't want to do that, so I just went in and kind of gave him an unsolicited verbal resume. Okay. Bye. And told them what I had done before the Bureau and what I had done in Albuquerque. And so I said, I thought, really, I was very well suited for that squad. And I took the liberty to check it out and they were down one person, so.

Robin: 25:04

So, this is something very interesting to me. And this is what I'm really curious about on this. Typically, In order to inspire someone to take action, like put you on a squad, you have to solve a problem, challenge, or pain point in their life and make their life a little bit easier. But typically when people confront someone with something they're not doing, it doesn't have the best impression, but. You have that great confidence and you have that balance of humility. What do you think they were seeing in you that allowed them to think this is a great idea for me? Because you keep being able to press that, that envelope, press that, as people say, that glass ceiling and break it to get through. You continually do that, which create that, which requires that great confidence and fortitude, but at the same time, it has to make the other person feel safe with the decision. What do you think they saw when they saw you that allowed them to do that?

Jana: 25:58

Well, I think, and again, you know this very well, the art of negotiation, right? And what that is, we negotiate all day long. You don't have to be a quote, you know, titan negotiator. But that is that when you're trying to get something for yourself or someone else, it's making them see, well, what's in it for me, right? Right, right, right. And I think For me, for that particular situation, it was demonstrating that I've had the experience, I can actually do this, and even though diversity wasn't really a word in our vocabulary that we used at the time in the FBI I brought that forward that here's here's an opportunity for you to show that you are, you know, supporting women, you're supporting everyone and that you wouldn't have to take as big a risk on me as maybe you would think. because I do have some experience and I told him a little bit more about what the squad was. So like I said, it was an unsolicited interview. I was giving him information to show I'd done my homework.

Robin: 26:51

Oh, great framing. Great phraseology there is really well done. All right. So we get on the reactive squad down there. What's next?

Jana: 27:01

Well, I, I'm gonna just I'll skip forward a little bit so we can get, because the next one's really gonna be the Behavioral Science Unit. So I was what they referred to as a NCABC, National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime Coordinator. And these were field agents that worked with the BSU at Quantico. And their job was if there was a local agency that needed help, that was requesting help. from the Behavioral Science Unit. You'd box up whatever materials all the case reports, copies of everything that Quantico would need for the job. If it was going to be offender profile, traits, characteristics, link analysis. So I did that. So I worked quite a bit with the local law enforcement and that was my conduit, if you will, my connection to some of the agents in the BSU at Quantico.

Robin: 27:51

And I'm so, so sorry, Janet. For those that are listening, it's easy for us because we understand the Bureau workings, but for people that watch Criminal Minds, they only know BAU. Can you give us a slight history on the different behavioral entities at that time

Jana: 28:07

in the Bureau? Well, yes, and you go back, when, when I started there, that's why I refer it to as the Behavioral Science Unit. We went through several name iterations, and it was then ISU. I still have some patches on my sweatshirt that Investigative Support Unit. None of us liked that, so we, we vetoed it. And then BAU, and then one of the judges, one of my colleagues, was testifying. He took exception to behavioral science unit. He said, that's not a science. What you are are analysts. It's an analytical process. And so we changed it from that to BAU and it wasn't making it mandatory, but he was picking, picking it apart.

Robin: 28:46

Right. And it's really grown from the basement of Quantico to years later to what it is now to multiple units, multiple BAUs, BSU stayed intact. I mean, it's just, it's crazy. And then my team, the BAP it's a lot.

Jana: 29:00

Well, and the BAP, my very strong opinion on that, there should have been a BAP much sooner than there was. When you take a look at the work of intelligence and, I'm going to say, espionage and working with informants, that, that is critical. I think that the full analysis process applies to that even more so than criminal. And it was, it was surprising that the Bureau took so long to, to actually create that.

Robin: 29:25

They need more people like you in there. All right. So we're doing the, the analysis. We're down in Tampa. We're supporting BSU. What was next?

Jana: 29:36

I'll just skip forward to, we got our orders, Dale and I got our orders to the Washington field office. And shortly after I'd been there, one of the my colleagues, Bill Hagmeyer that I'd worked with when I was in Tampa as a coordinator. He called and said, Hey we have an opening. And the, the unit did not advertise. It was kind of like word of mouth. And he said, it's not going to be open very long. There's a lot of people applying. So if you're interested, take a take a vacation day and come down here and apply and interview. So I did. And the then, you know, chief was John Douglas. And so John had another agent. We're interviewing me in John's office and it was, you know, it started off as a regular, you know, why, why do you want to do this? What makes you qualified? What do you bring to the table? Then, And, and

Robin: 30:23

I'm sorry, Janet, how many years did you have in the Bureau at this point?

Jana: 30:26

I had six, six

Robin: 30:28

and a half. Oh, pretty young too. Good.

Jana: 30:31

Yes. Yep. And again, I go, I go back to the police work. I think that's what really, Really helped me. I had been, I didn't go into it in Tampa. I'd been in a shooting and there were some other things that had happened there. So again, I immersed myself in almost every case that I could. I invited myself on, on cases and, and Soon, I think I developed enough rapport, I'll just put it that way and I can say respect, but rapport with the agents that they started including me in some of these arrests. So I did get a lot of experience. So I think that... Yeah, I think that helped with this. But, so when John was done with the, you know, the basic questions, he had five 8x10 photos that he pushed across his desk to me, and they were very grisly, very gruesome, some decapitation, some evisceration you know, gory pictures. So I'm looking at them, and he didn't ask me any questions. You know, so it's, okay, so it seemed about, like, you know, three minutes, probably it was about 20 seconds. I said what, what do you want me to do? You haven't asked me any questions. And he goes, yeah, I know I'm observing you. I said, I, I know I'm kind of making you nervous. You're creeping me out here a little bit. So what, what is it? He goes, I just want to make sure that you weren't squeamish, you weren't going to faint that you weren't going to look away. And I said, well, why would I do that? He goes, well, we've had some other females here and that's what they did. And we couldn't possibly have them in the unit. And so, and I do not recommend this, but I said, well, I did some homework on you and this is long before the internet. And I said, you were a tennis instructor in the military. Why would that make you more qualified to work this kind of work than me? Because I worked in homicides. That's the part I don't recommend. As the words were coming out of my mouth, I'm going, no, this is not smart. To John's credit I, I got the position anyway. He did hire me.

Robin: 32:22

Wow. And so what, what was next? I mean, this is when the flurry, the tempo, I mean, just kind of go into, I, I know most people are really curious about the day to day they see what they on criminal minds, but that is a, a long way off. And especially I think I, I loved your descriptions of how you worked with silence of the Lambs and Jody Foster, you know, playing that role and what was good, what was bad. So what was some of the, the highlights and the lowlights of working at the B S U.

Jana: 32:50

Well, just to go over the daily type of things, if you will as you well know, it was kind of a think tank group approach. When officers were coming down to get, let's just say, offender traits and characteristics on a, on a case they, it wasn't the Gentleman Rose Show. They weren't just coming to see me. So, we would invite other members of the unit. On certain cases. So that's why we got so much exposure to so many cases. Cause I keep, I'm a compulsive note taker. So I worked on over 850 cases, but they weren't all mine. Again, I would be invited in with somebody else's. Some of it might just be for an hour, for an interview, a technique, those kinds of things. So it was it was never a dull moment but it could be a little overwhelming sometimes, and. Really, some of the very gruesome cases, and looking at the ones that, and I'll just use Ted Bundy because people, he's got name recognition. But you look at some of the things the victims and what he did post mortem activity and the talk about premeditation, he would search out the body disposal sites before he selected his victim, looking for, okay, did the police make routes here? This is, you know, this is remote. I can get on this road and get away. So and he indicated later interviews with Bill Hagmeyer. That's one of the reasons he thought he was so successful is he, Thought about big picture long before he actually committed the crime. So, interviewing people like that and, and hearing up close and personal, people describe what they did and not having any emotion about it. It would be like, I'd say, Hey, Robin nice haircut. And you'd say, yeah, I, so and so's my barber. And, and it would be that kind of a cadence, that lack of emotion. And they would be talking about dismembering someone or, or stabbing them and stab wounds to the hilt. And that was Something that I really had to learn to take, I don't want to say in stride, but of course you can't react to that kind of information because I'm trying to get more of it. I'm trying to elicit what they might know introspectively. So it, it was, that was I think the most challenging part initially. How did you learn that? Again, kind of being stoic and keeping focused on the mission. So why am I here? I want information on this heinous crime or crimes that this person has done. Right? So keep on that. Appeal to the ego. That was the amazing thing. The FBI could not, they didn't have any authority to have a stay of execution, to switch somebody from prisons, to order better meals for them. There was nothing like that. So we took the approach that you had to appeal to their ego, right? Gee, you, you've been great at this. You you didn't get caught. You had to turn yourself in. Could you give us, we'd really like to learn from you. You're going to be an excellent teacher. And to my surprise, that, that seemed to work most of the time.

Robin: 35:45

You made it about them. Crazy, isn't it? All about them, yes. What kind of things was this doing to you personally, you think?

Jana: 35:53

I didn't recognize it at the time. Again, very busy schedule, right? And I used to, not so much anymore. I love that cadence, you know, going from one thing to another to another. So I didn't think it was intentionally, but I didn't focus on me. I didn't have those little check ins with myself. And it was my husband that started noticing later on that there were some things that I was doing that he said, That's not normal. Do you want to give me, do you want me to give you a for instance? Yeah, sure. Okay. So I'd worked on it was like three different cases in one week where the victims, all female, had been killed by knives in their own home. So it was a weapon of opportunity. The offender didn't bring the knife to there and, and they had all been very low risk victims. They were people that we were told later wouldn't just open the door at one in the morning to anybody. You'd had people security oriented. So for some reason, and Dale was gone. He was, he was on a 55 day mission. It's his little thing called Waco So he was gone for a while and, and, and, and

Robin: 36:59

I don't say it in a, in a bad way, I said it before we started a show is like you and Dale together are, are like the farrest gumps of the F B I. You've literally been part of so many big cases, so many. Instrumental parts of American history. It's, it's dumbfounding. Anyway, keep going. Yeah, I

Jana: 37:17

was going to say, we were never bored, never bored. But anyway, so you know, I'm alone and I'm, you know, I'm not afraid, but I'm situationally aware. And I thought, you know what? If somebody breaks into my house, they're going to have to bring their own knife. I'm not going to leave our knives out. So we had those little Tupperware things that your knives are in and then the steak things that are outside in a block. So I took all of those things. We lived in a three story townhouse. Took them down to the basement and put them in the dryer. My thought process was if somebody breaks in, they're never going to look in the dryer, right? So I forgot to take them out of the dryer and then I was doing a prison interview at a female prison. Dale comes home. He's a gourmet cook. He was gonna make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. a gourmet cook. He wanted a knife. So he called me and said we used to have a bunch of knives. Where are they? And I said, oh, they're in the dryer. And he didn't say a word. And he said, you know what, we're gonna talk. There's some a few other things too. He goes, but we're gonna talk when you get home. Yeah. That those were some of the effects. And I mentioned that to Jody Foster, when, when you had mentioned Coaching her, I wanted to say training, but coach, coaching her role as Clarice Starling. And I did, you know, discuss some of the things because she had asked that question, well, some of this has to have some kind of an impact on you. And I said, yeah, but I haven't been the one to point it out in myself. Unfortunately, it's been, it's been others. What was like coaching her? Oh, I was very impressed with her. She was extremely professional. She takes her work very seriously. She asked good questions. And by that, I mean, you know, they had a script, the script was already written. And we sat in my office and then sometimes in a conference room and she would say, would you actually say something like that? And I'd say, not really, you know, I would use this word. Or I would, you know, do that and she took notes on all of that and, you know, again, she would only have had liberty to change so much herself. The one thing that Thomas Harris, who wrote the book, I never understood why in the movie version they kept Clarice as a trainee. Right. Because... The reality part was, and I said this, you know, they're not going to give Quantico and the FBI is not going to give a trainee a gun and have her running all around doing this kind of work. You, you, you, they don't issue you that until you graduate. Why not just have her be an agent? But they wanted to, they wanted to showcase Quantico, they wanted the graduation, so that was their, their reason for doing that. But otherwise, Jodie Foster was successful in getting some of the changes put in. Obviously she's very influential in being the character, so.

Robin: 39:55

Yeah, she, she, she plays an agent really, really well, I thought, and yeah, it was just phenomenally well done. All thanks to you. Now I'm going to watch it again with a different optic on

Jana: 40:06

her. Well, Robin, I had to do that. I told you, they had a special showing for us the day or two before the movie came out. So it was just the people in the behavioral science unit and some of the cast and the director and whatnot. I was more in my critical FBI mode than picking on the, you know, what she should have had. That should have been a red handle, which is a weapon with the firing pin removed. And, you know, little things. Then I saw it 20 years later and I thought, Oh, that's, it's really not a bad movie. Well, I watched it last week because I knew people were going to ask questions about it. And now I'm like, Oh, wow. This is a really good movie. I like it. And what, what do

Robin: 40:45

you like most

Jana: 40:45

about it now? Well, I get back, so I'm now, I am totally a spectator. I'm in the entertainment mode, right? So when I view it through that lens, that optic what I really liked about it is the whole premise of it. I mean, Dr. Hannibal Lecter and I think Anthony Hopkins did a fabulous job. He actually gives me the creeps with the voice that he has and the way he doesn't blink. You know, he'll blink just occasionally and the insights, what he's looking for, because he's a sociopath he is looking for the human part. That's why he does the quid pro quo with Clarice. He wants to hear, and he likes to bring up painful memories to her, you know, that she, her dad had died, and then that she was, she went to live with an aunt and uncle, and then she was like in an orphanage, and what actually the silence of the lambs mean, they were killing lambs, he knows that those are painful memories to her, but he wants to observe what talking about painful memories looks like on somebody that, has emotion

Robin: 41:46

Right. Incredible. So what do we learn about profiling and baselining and human behavior while at BSU that we've applied to different areas of your life, both in the Bureau and then post Bureau?

Jana: 41:59

Yeah, okay, so to me that's fabulous. I find that what I've learned, everything that you have just mentioned, all of those tools I can, I apply in my daily life and, and half the time I'm not even aware of it. So, we all have to retire from the Bureau at some point in time And I went after 22 and a half years, a little earlier earlier ends of 50, because I do believe age discrimination is alive and well. So again, I wanted to be more competitive into the, in the private sector, and it was like landing on the moon. I had been in my law enforcement cocoon for 30 years, and their public private sector is very different. And What I found is when I was interviewing positions and, you know, being interviewed, but interviewing people, too, at that stage of my life, I thought I the benefit was I was interviewing for a fit for them, too. I wanted to set myself up for success, and I also wanted to, dare I say, enjoy what I was going to be doing. So I, I found myself using some of the same skills that I learned in the BSU while I'm... Analyzing and interviewing people and learning to ask what I thought were questions that were going to be important to me regarding fit.

Robin: 43:13

There's another area that you, I thought you explored and really pressed with a great courage throughout your career, especially later on in your career as you were an executive inside the Bureau, especially when your SWAT team and others are facing really traumatic events. And I'm sure you carried it forward in your corporate life as well. And that is the courage to offer and inspire people to get help. Psychological help, counseling. Right. And, and that's with great resistance too, because when you are in a culture, as I was in 9 11 as well in New York, and I remember, I think someone mentioning we could go talk to someone and it was so poo pooed. But you, you saw the value of it. What gave you the courage and the inspiration to see that value and press for people to

Jana: 43:58

do that? I, I will refer to the Columbine tragedy. Yeah. Which most people know. And I was a, an assistant special agent in charge of Denver, Colorado at that time. And when this occurred, when this occurred It was Jefferson County SWAT team that responded and the FBI SWAT team augmented that and there were several of SWAT members that had children that attended that school. They didn't know where their kids were right at that time. They, it was a big trauma for them in addition to seeing just the aftermath of such a tragedy. So what I did, and I didn't use the the assistance program internally because I think I had a fairly good understanding. of the SWOT mentality and mindset and having Dale, my husband, be a part of that culture. In fact, when I mentioned to him that I was retaining two external psychologists to come in and talk to the SWOT members, he said, oh, they're not going to do that. That nobody's going to do that. And I said, well, just let me, you know, let me make that offer. To my pleasant surprise, Everyone except the SWAT team leader took advantage of that, and some of them continued for months, and one specifically whose child was injured there continued for a couple of years, and the Bureau, the Bureau supported that. So I, I, to me, I, I just felt, you know, there's one thing to be healthy physically, and the Bureau really focuses on that, but you have to be healthy mentally as well.

Robin: 45:27

Yeah, what a great balance. Another dichotomy of mission and compassion at the same time. A rough one to be aware of in the first place and then have the courage to ensure that as well because, yeah, mental health is everything because you can't solve any problems without it, hands down.

Jana: 45:44

You know, that's exactly right. You know, you can have all those other skill sets, but if your mind isn't in proper working order, that that's, it could be more of a danger. But I did another one of those because having Dale have been on the hostage rescue team in addition to SWAT commander in several offices. I, I had a lot of interaction with the SWAT team, which I thoroughly enjoyed, but you're right. It's a culture. It's a strong culture of its own. We had a shooting in one of the field offices where, I wrote up two of the gentlemen on the, two of the agents on the SWAT team for fire discipline. Yeah. Because it was a situation where the subject came up, this is a small apartment, he came up from behind a bed with a gun in his hand and pointed it at them. That would have been a reason to shoot back. They certainly would have been within the right to fire at the subject. They did not. And when he delved back under the bed, one of the guys is very large, he jumped on him and the gun fell out of his hand he broke his ribs, the, the bad guy, the subject, and that was, I mean, he could have been you know, dead in an instant, but that was all the injury he suffered, but the other SWAT team members were making fun of them for not shooting and said, you know, hey, this would have been a righteous shoot, why didn't you do it? Yeah. I wrote them up and gave them a, well, QSI, gave them a reward, an internal reward and wrote about a two page on the importance of using your head and fire discipline in a situation where you don't have to take a life and they both, they articulated to me later why they didn't and I thought that was perfect reasoning, and so they received a public award in front of everyone for displaying that judgment. Copyright

Robin: 47:23

I really wish I could have worked with you in my time in the Bureau as well.

Jana: 47:27

I wish we could have worked together.

Robin: 47:30

Oh my gosh, what an inspirational leader you are. So looking back as we're kind of getting ready to close up here, because man, time flies when I'm having a great time talking to you. Anything you change

Jana: 47:41

in your career? No. I know, and I say that because, again, I don't dwell on regrets, and I think it happened for a reason, and as you all know, there's an action and a reaction. We all make, even if you make a decision, not to make a decision, right? That is something, and you're going to have a consequence for that. So, I look back at, to me, it's been very rewarding and I appreciate all the opportunities that I had to grow and learn and have different experiences. So, no, I wouldn't change anything.

Robin: 48:13

And those are some rich experiences. Jenna, what's a couple things, if any, that I forgot to ask you that I should have asked you that you wanted to make sure you wanted to share before we could sign off?

Jana: 48:23

You are such a great interviewer. So, yeah, I don't think we omitted anything. I just... For me, just kind of me as a party ward, wanted people to know that the motivation for writing the book outside of Joe Navarro, which I'm going to say, Hey bud, again.

Robin: 48:39

The Hey bud. Yep. He gave you a great forward, by the way.

Jana: 48:43

Yeah. Oh yeah. It was phenomenal. But. He would, you know, almost every year check in and say, Hey, when are you going to write a book? When are you going to write a book? And I really wasn't going to. But I started thinking about, you know, I dedicated the book to the too many victims of violent crime and their loved ones who grieve. I thought it was important to get that out there. And then I, I don't quite understand it, but I know there's still a big interest in this type of, of work, these stories. Right. And I thought, I can tell them accurately. I love our profession, and I just thought this is an opportunity for me to tell accurate things, and about the wonderful FBI agents that I had the opportunity to work with.

Robin: 49:25

And for those tuning in and watching, her book, Hearts of Darkness, it is both a memoir of an amazing career full of courage, but also, if you're a true crime aficionado, you're going to love it. It is, like you said, your cases, other cases you're involved in, part of the BSU, and not even part of the BSU. I mean, it is a riveting tale of your entire career that I think is the most accurate depiction of the Bureau that I was part of as well. That I, I, I, it's. It's a great reference for anyone who's into that or is thinking about getting into it. So I highly recommend it. Jenna, where can people go to find out a little bit more about you and follow you if they want to?

Jana: 50:05

Well, my book is, is available on Amazon. com and I'm on a book tour right now, which is really exciting for me because apparently they don't do books that much anymore. That's right. I'm just starting Instagram, so I have not been on social media much because I, I'm just, I've been private. But I think taking some lessons from you, Robin, and from Joe Navarro, I'm gonna get out there a lot more.

Robin: 50:28

It's fun. Yeah, Joe is the master. As Joe once said to me, and he did the same thing with me years ago to publish, publish, publish, publish, publish, publish. And his excuse always was what I always hold true. And I try to pass on as well as if you have at least one bit of information, another human being can benefit from shame on you for not getting it to them.

Jana: 50:48

Absolutely. Thank you for, thank you for saying that, because I think we have colleagues and other people out there that really should get the word out. Oh,

Robin: 50:55

and it's a lot to share because it's a life of service as which you exemplify so very well. Jana, we could talk forever. I want to thank you so much for coming on, sharing your insight, your background, your amazing life story, and your passion for human beings. Thank

Jana: 51:12

you, Robin. It was my honor.

Robin: 51:13

Thank you for tuning into another episode of Forged by Trust. Remember if you want to Forged trust, it's not how you make people feel about you. That matters. It's how you make them feel about themselves. If you're interested in more information about how I can help you forge your own trust, building communication, interpersonal strategies as a speaker, you're a coach or as a trusted advisor for your organization, please visit my website at www dot people. formula.com. See you next time on Forged by Trust.