Unlocking Your Bravery w/ Kathy Caprino

🌟 How to Transform Your Career Through Expanded Power, Impact and Confidence

🤔 In this profound conversation, Kathy and I explore the theme of 'Finding Brave', a concept deeply intertwined with Kathy's personal and professional journey. Kathy shares her transition from not being brave for the first 41 years of her life to awakening and realizing the necessity of change in her self-perception and life approach. As she elucidates on her early life, talents, and the pivotal moments that led her to redefine her path, Kathy dives into the significance of breakthroughs following breakdowns in her life. The discussion ventures into her experiences with various jobs, the realization of her true passions, and the impact of family expectations and societal pressures on her choices. Kathy's story unfolds through her college years, early career decisions, and the later realization of her true calling. The conversation also touches on the challenges she faced, including workplace mistreatment and her health struggles, underscoring the importance of self-awareness, setting boundaries, and overcoming societal expectations. Through her journey, Kathy highlights the power of empathy, trust, and the courage required to confront and change deep-seated fears, ultimately guiding listeners towards embracing their uniqueness and cultivating bravery in their lives.

🌟 What we discuss:
👉 - The importance of self-assessment, 

👉 - Recognizing Personal Talents, 

👉 - Overcoming Communication Fears

👉 - The Necessity of Aligning One’s Career with Their True Self for Genuine Happiness and Fulfillment.

😃 Connect with Kathy:
 https://kathycaprino.com and https://findingbrave.org

😃 Take Kathy's Free Training and Assessment:
https://kathycaprino.com/freetraining/

🌟 Follow Kathy:
@kathycaprino (for Twitter, LI, IG)
@ElliaCommunication (for FB)

🌟 Kathy's Books:
👉 The Most Powerful You: 7 Bravery-Boosting Paths to Career Bliss

👉 Breakdown, Breakthrough: The Professional Woman’s Guide to Claiming

Pre-Order my Latest Book: "Unbreakable Alliances: A Spy Recruiters Authoritative Guide to Cultivating Powerful & Lasting Connections" HERE

Unlocking the Power of Trust: Keynote Speaker Robin Dreeke Shares Secrets to Creating Allies - Robin is the former Chief of the FBI's Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program. With over 30 years of experience in recruiting spies and building trust, Robin is the world-renowned speaker you need. Don't miss out on the opportunity to learn from a true expert. Contact us now to book your event! Click HERE to book a time to chat.

🤔 Take Robin's FREE YouTube Keys to Communication Online Course HERE.

😃 Check out Robin's Speaking, and Training Services HERE.

Transcript

Kathy: 0:11

So the truth is I wasn't brave for 41 years Mhmm. But didn't know that. And that's why awakening to I have to change how I'm operating. I have to change how I think about myself, all of that. That's why I love the word brave so much. The second favorite word I have in the English language is breakthrough because my first book was breakdown, breakthrough. Right. And I find that for most of us, we don't make the changes we need till there's a breakdown moment that the universe says, yeah. Now is the time.

Robin: 0:49

Welcome to the Forged by Trust podcast. I'm your host, Robin Dreeke, professional speaker, former U. S. Marine spy recruiter, bestselling author, and your trust and communication expert. Coming up next on the Forged by Trust podcast.

Kathy: 1:01

what we have to do is open our eyes and look at what shaped us Right. And and do something about it. 98 percent of professional women have at least 1 of these damaging power and confidence gaps, and 90 percent of men have at least 1. But women have 75 percent of women have 3 or more. And when you have these, Robin, you're not gonna thrive. You will not thrive. He said, I know from where you sit, this looks like the worst crisis you've ever faced. From where I sit, it's the first moment you can choose who you want to be in the world. He didn't say what. He said, who?

Robin: 1:37

The Forged by Trust podcast is a show where we explore the essential skill of forging trust for building an innovative culture and exceptional leadership. Delve into the behavior skills and communication techniques required for success and learn from the best in the industry. Our guests include spies, spy recruiters, master interrogators, best selling authors, thought leaders, and innovators who will share their insights on building teams, Partnerships and exceptional leadership by Forging Trust. Today's episode, Unlocking Your Bravery, How to Transform Your Career Through Expanded Power, Impact, and Confidence is with my good friend Cathy Caprino. international career and leadership coach, writer, speaker, and executive trainer helping professional women advance. Thrive and reach their highest, most rewarding potential. A former corporate VP, she's also a trained therapist, seasoned executive coach, senior Forbes contributor, top media source on women's issues, and the author of two books, including her latest, The Most Powerful You. Seven bravery boosting paths to career bliss, now offered as a training course for individuals and organizations. Kathy's been named a top career coach and leadership voice in the U. S. and abroad. During the episode today, we talk about the importance of self assessment. Recognizing personal talents, overcoming communication fears, and the necessity of aligning one's career with their true self or genuine happiness and fulfillment. Alrighty, Kathy. I've been looking forward to this for such a long time because I've been on your show and reversing it a number of years ago. And the title of your show really exemplifies you, and that is Finding Brave. I didn't really have a understanding of what that meant until I actually did a deeper dive and read your book, which was also incredible. And I wanted to go on that life journey and arc with you, if we could. All those years ago when you're younger, what do you think the spark was to finding the most powerful you and finding you're brave?

Kathy: 3:39

First of all, thank you for having me, Robin. I cannot wait to dive into these incredible questions I know you have brewing. I love this question. So I'm gonna give you the short answer and then a little bit of, uh, uh, you know, a description of it. Me bouncing my

Robin: 3:54

seat.

Kathy: 3:55

Yes. So the truth is I wasn't brave for 41 years Mhmm. But didn't know that. And that's why awakening to I have to change how I'm operating. I have to change how I think about myself, all of that. That's why I love the word brave so much. The second favorite word I have in the English language is breakthrough because my first book was breakdown, breakthrough. Right. And I find that for most of us, we don't make the changes we need till there's a breakdown moment that the universe says, yeah. Now is the time. But to give you a little bit of a deep dive here, I had a lovely childhood. It was, you know, loving. Um, Greek mom, Italian dad, they're in heaven now. And where'd you grow up? Schenectady, New York. Upstate New

Robin: 4:48

York. Yes. I'm a New Yorker as

Kathy: 4:50

well. You are?

Robin: 4:51

Upstate? Um, anything above New York City is upstate. So, yes, upstate. Um, Putnam County, so not as far north as Schenectady. But, yes, woods, lakes, rocks. There you

Kathy: 5:01

go. Beautiful. Beautiful place to grow up. Right?

Robin: 5:04

That's expensive, but, yes, beautiful

Kathy: 5:05

and cold. I know. With snow. We had snow constantly. Yes. Loved it. And, you know, I would say as a child, there were some talents that I could see. And then as a teen, I I honed those. So as we were talking earlier, I am a singer and a performer, and I was a competitive tennis player. I was a number 1 on the tennis team. And I was also a writer. I was a writer on the paper. I'm telling you these things because it's part of the story I work with with my coaching clients. We are so much of who we really are early on. Oh, yeah. But often, we don't recognize these as talents Right. As special special gifts that we're meant to use in the world, either through your living or as a joy and a passion, you know, in service to others, hopefully, because I think that's what makes us happiest. So what happened was went to college, Boston u, studied English. I really wanted to be an editor that helped authors birth their ideas. Well, well, I bailed on that minute 1, and I just took the first job I could. So let's go

Robin: 6:13

back a little bit first Yes. Because you you dropped a lot of talents in in your opening dialogue right there about the things you had in high school, singing, um, writing, tennis. What do you think it was that made you leave some of those behind and pursue something else in college?

Kathy: 6:38

Interesting. You you were I was going to what I did for 18 years that left them all behind, but you make a really good point. So I'm studying English. I love it. Made sense because I I love ideas, and I wanted to help birth ideas. But Okay. So now I'm curious

Robin: 6:55

about that. What was it about English that sparked in birth ideas? I mean, there's a lot of other subjects that we kinda do. Was there a specific teacher? Was there a moment? I'm just curious because, like, English, I don't think of English as a as a place to spark ideas. I think, uh, of

Kathy: 7:12

Philosophy or, you know Yeah.

Robin: 7:13

You know, or or or or literary giants or something like that. Granted, that there's amazing thought leaders in that when you look back at Epictetus and Plutarch and things like that. Marcus Aurelius, I'm as you can tell, I'm a stoic lover. Um, but I was just curious. English, I would have thought maybe history or

Kathy: 7:32

something else. What was it? So what I mean by that is English literature, and I know it's Yeah. There you go. That's what I mean. But I want to tell you I know where that comes from. I would say to my mom, who was the not college educated, but the most well read person I've ever met to to to this day. And I would say, mom, I'm bored because I I've always wanted needed high stimulation. I was always doing so. Right. And she'd say, go read a book. If she said it once, she said it a thousand times, and I would. So I remember I had kind of the highest vocabulary in honors English in high school. But I loved I loved fiction. I loved story. I love storyline, what makes people do what they do. A lot of it is so psychologically based. You know? Dostoevsky, my gosh. You know, amazing Russian and other, uh, from around the world. So it was English literature. It was story that I loved. Right. So studying English made sense. Although my dad, who was a scientist, was like, oh gosh. Why is she studying that? But, also, to answer your question, while I was a singer and I was in the plays and people said, oh, you're gonna go on and be a singer. Right? It never occurred to me to study music more than I had in high school. And I don't wanna blame my parents, dad in particular, but I think we are so shaped by the expectations of our parents Mhmm. That I think in the recesses of my mind, I knew if I said I really wanted to get an MFA or I wanted to study music, it he would have really objected terribly. Right. Because he didn't respect it. Right. And what kind of scientist was he? He was a chemist, but he had a 30 year job at GE in silicone rubber, and he had 7 patents. And he loved it so much. So I was shaped by I was kind of like the son my dad didn't have. There's 2 2 girls, 2 women, and, you know, my sibling and I. And I I was very shaped by being very close to him as an athlete, as a competitor. And and I think in my mind, I said I I need to go into business, and it needs to be a very big business. You know, publishing was that to me. But even, uh, I would had an internship at MIT, and I worked on the radio news station. And within a week, Robin, they said, speaking of voice, you've got a great voice. You wanna Yeah. Read the news.

Robin: 10:00

Yeah. No kidding. I can hear it.

Kathy: 10:02

And what did I say? I said no. Oh, really? So from the minute I was on my own, I said no to these talents, and I remember going way deep. I was this sheltered kid from Schenectady. I was not a city girl. I was not brave. And the other thing is I could not speak up to my mother. Now this sounds like a big brave fest. I tell everyone, brave, uh, blaming. Did I say brave fest or blame fest? Brave. What I meant is blame fest. Yeah. I don't want anyone to think I'm sitting here blaming my beloved parents. They did the best they could. They were second generation immigrants. My my mother was malnourished as a child. You know? They were poor. This is not blaming, but what we have to do is open our eyes and look at what shaped us Right. And and do something about it. Right. But I grew up not being able to speak up to my mom because she believed in authority. Right. You don't challenge your elders. You just don't. And she would get mad. She would get Right. Not abusive. She would just shut herself in her bedroom. And I did before she passed, which was last March at 98. When I wrote this book, I asked her permission. I'm gonna come out and say that I couldn't challenge my mother. Right. Are you okay with that? And she hesitated. And I'm, oh, no. And she said, yeah. I can imagine you felt that because I didn't believe that you should challenge me. You know, Kathy,

Robin: 11:33

having read your book, I I take notes on the things I read. I'm sorry. I'm using I statements in there. But what's really striking to me was it that played such a obviously, a big role in your life was asking your mother's permission to stay that, uh, to say that and share that, but that wasn't a huge takeaway for me, believe it or not. And so I play, it's always interesting. It played bigger in your life than I think then. Then it was necessarily to others or, you know, like, and then you even shared it in the book because the, you have beautiful key points on being brave in the book and great examples, and that was 1 of them, but it didn't stand out as anything greater.

Kathy: 12:14

So it's You mean let me understand. I'm gonna act like you're on my podcast. Yeah. You mean so the act of asking mom when she was 94, um, if she had said no, I would have had a big problem with that because this is the message I wanted to get out in the world that we have to speak our truth. We have to challenge. We but lovingly. Right? So I'm so grateful we didn't have to go at it about me putting it out there. But did you not get in the book that my biggest challenge was I had no boundaries. I couldn't speak up for myself. I attracted mistreatment. I mean, I had you know, the the fast forward is 18 years of a career where there was a lot of bad stuff.

Robin: 12:57

That was those were the stories where I gained your brave from, where I saw where you overcame that brave. It wasn't your mother. Um, you in other words, what I'm trying to say so really poorly is that the book was powerful, and it will would have been powerful regardless of that, um, that 1 data point that was was huge in your life, but all of your points from that point forward. It's just it it was just really fascinating.

Kathy: 13:27

I'm actually glad, Robin, because I think that I recognize this challenge with my mother when I be started to become a therapist at age 41. Yeah. And, you know, to be a therapist, a good therapy program turns you inside out. Right. If you're not looking at everything, you're not you know? And, um, it began to occur to me. Oh my goodness. I I can't speak up for myself. I could see it in my classes at 41. I'd say I'd ask a question that would challenge the professor, and she'd get mad. And I would think I'm gonna get drummed out of the program. And my friends would be like, oh, brother, Kathy. You you got a skewed view. I ended up passing with distinction. So, um, so but I'm glad that in the book, it it doesn't wax on and on about mom because It doesn't. But but

Robin: 14:15

now I get it because that is obviously the the origin of the arc of not speaking up for yourself Right. Which manifested and grew as as time progressed in these really more powerful stories. But that's where it started. That's why it's what what a what a great opportunity you had to get that permission through being brave before she had passed and to do that. It's really true. What

Kathy: 14:43

a gift. I I thanks, mom. I so agree. The other thing that I learned from my parents, which holds women back today, and some of it is a little of the patriarchal system, which we'll talk about, My mother would say, I don't you know, some I was in a show, and I was 1 of the leads. And afterwards, in the grocery store, some mother came up and went, oh, you're Kathy. Made a big deal about and I think I I puffed up a little. Right? And I was when was I? 8 17. Later, she said, I don't like this. Tone it down. I don't like you being a bragger. I'll never forget it. Right. Um, and this is what women suffer with, not in that particular way, but we're often taught, do not be overconfident. Do not be assertive. Right. Do not be strong. You know, be accommodating, pleasing. Right. Moderating, putting other people first. So these 2 lessons are really the the genesis of how we can have what it seems to be a successful life. But I say that speaking about the book and the 7 damaging power gaps, my survey showed that 98 percent of professional women have at least 1 of these damaging power and confidence gaps, and 90 percent of men have at least 1. But women have 75 percent of women have 3 or more. And when you have these, Robin, you're not gonna thrive. You will not thrive. You may may make a lot of money. You might have a big house. You might have a big title, but internally, you're not gonna thrive.

Robin: 16:18

Yeah. Where it really matters because then it gets linked to and and you talked about this as well, that internal thriving, not the external, is where our health

Kathy: 16:28

comes from. Well, you bring up an amazing point. I mean, so many people have health issues. I learned in therapy, your body says what your lips cannot. I know this is score. That's it. I know this is a theme for you, and you know it. Powerful.

Robin: 16:45

Right. And so important. So, all right. So I'm sorry. I love these rabbit holes. I got my goosebumps going. They're very enriching in life. Because I wanna get to eventually our your profound self awareness and when that really started sparking. Because we're not there yet, but we're alright. We're We're college. We're majoring English. We're walking this path. Uh, what was

Kathy: 17:07

next? So, you know, I I really did bail on the the thrilling dream for the life, and it was for money. I lived in Brooklyn. I was 22. And Boy, do

Robin: 17:20

you I your language usage is so beautiful. Obviously What'd I

Kathy: 17:24

say? I don't even know. The

Robin: 17:26

thrilling journey of life. Define thrilling journey of life for Kathy back then you thought it was that you're bailing

Kathy: 17:33

on. I I think I I had a sense that I wanted to be of use in a way you know, if if you think about being an editor, you're gonna bring new ideas to the forefront, and you're gonna help brilliant people who have something to say, say it. Right. So, I mean, again, none of this was crystallized. I I'm I was like a lot of other people. You just you're on a track. This looks good. I like English. Interestingly, I was in the school of public communication for media. I took 1 class and said, I hate this. And what school again? Uh, Boston University. Right. So I I wanted a school that had public communications. I said I hate it. It was teaching the how, what, when, where, and why. And I thought, ugh. And I and how funny that I've been writing on Forbes for 10 years. You know? Not journalistically, but I find that really funny that I rejected it. I really loved richer ideas that you could go along. Anyway, the bailing of it was I get out back then. I'm I'm aging myself. Smith Corona typewriter with the resume. A blue. I loved it. It was so big and

Robin: 18:49

that's what I'm typing classes in high school. Yes. I remember my wife and I both took typing.

Kathy: 18:53

I I did too. I'm a great typist. Anyway, sent them out. I got I got and took the very first job that was offered to me, marketing in science journals and books. Good grief. And, And, you know, copywriting. So this is lesson number 1 of 700000 things. Just doing what you're good at for a living is not a recipe for happiness. You have to like it. It has to connect with you somehow. So I was very good at writing marketing copy for, you know, scientific journals, but my god, I was bored. And the company, the first company was really not full of integrity. About 2 weeks after I took that job, I heard from Simon and Schuster, you know, 1 of the New York publishing companies I'd killed to work for. And it was for assistant editor that I had applied, and they said we'd love to have you in. Robin, what do I do, do you think? Do I go, or do I not go knowing what I just said? I didn't go on the interview. Oh my

Robin: 19:51

gosh. Okay. So how did you even get so how old were you at this time? 22. How did you get that interview? What are people seeing? What did they see in you that they wanted you part of that at that age, you think? Um,

Kathy: 20:03

I had very good grades. I, um, I wrote on the school paper MIT. You know, I what do what do people hire today? They're looking for someone with a demonstrated interest in so they wanted an assistant editor would be someone who's worked with words, maybe published something, worked on a newspaper, demonstrated that throughout throughout, you know, the time period they're looking at college. And so I I did have all that. Good grades there and, um, you know, doing stuff. Interview or anything for it? This was just sending out the resume. And, you know, back then Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They looked at the resume and said, would you come in? You didn't even speak on the phone. They had you in. Right. I I believe they were all in person. Yeah. Hundred percent. Yeah. So it was you know, I had tip the typical stuff, I think, really. Alright. So we said no. And what did I say to myself? Oh my gosh. I want this job so badly. I'd take it you know, I don't care what they say. I want it. But I what would this company say if I quit? So do you see the through line is good girl, Kathy. Mhmm. Never upset people. I mean, it isn't great to quit at after 3. Not not after 3 weeks. Not great. But if you're going to the career of your dreams and you hate the job already, why wouldn't you just go on the interview? So lesson number 400, just interview people. You hate what you're doing. You don't feel you're so many women and I've worked with over 20000 women now across, you know, 6 continents. They'll say to me how miserable they are, and they've been miserable for years. So I say, are you interviewing? No. Why aren't you interviewing? I don't mean to sound snarky. I know the answer. Because they're afraid in every way. They're afraid of what it's gonna lead to. They're afraid that they're afraid that they're gonna have to give up their great house and their great salary. They're afraid they're gonna bomb it. They're afraid they're gonna get rejected. Uh, oh my lord. So what happened was I stayed 18 years in and I did find a book club company, McMillan Book Clubs, and I became a product development manager, uh, and and that was research. Turns out, I love research. So it was quantitative and qualitative focus group surveys to develop new products. Your your father's

Robin: 22:18

coming through and you in the research side is it? That's

Kathy: 22:21

it. But there's an interesting story there. I did well. I was very well respected in that, but I didn't had never studied statistics, research methodology. So another point is I lived with this dirty little secret that I don't really know enough, I thought to myself. Right. And if they find out, it's gonna be bad. So, Robin, they they love love me. I was there 11 years. Why didn't I ask? NYU was, you know, a mile away. Why didn't I ask to take Could you please support me and pay for me taking a research course? A statistics. No. I didn't wanna admit it. So this is, you know, something I also see. We have dirty little secrets. If they only knew, they would reject me. Shame is horrible. 18 years, and it culminated in a vice president job where I was I was mistreated, Robin. Sexual harassment, gender discrimination, gender bias, toxic colleagues, narcissistic bosses. I didn't even know what narcissism was now. Unfortunately, I'm a bit of an expert. Alright. Um, and worse than that, I was chronically ill actually. Every 4 months, I had an infection of the trachea of all things. No speaking. No singing. Couldn't my kids were little then. They're 26 and 29. I couldn't even utter a word because it was it was so inflamed. And I remember being so enraged. I didn't understand why am I so enraged. Because it was all about I went to an energy healer, actually. Didn't believe in that at the time. Now I've studied energy healing. 2 of them said, what do you do for a living? And I said and they 1 of them said, this is a crying within. And the other said, this is the seed of your personal expression. You're lying in in what you're doing. You Yeah. You know, this is not who you really are. Oh my gosh. Well, I didn't make a change, Robin. Why not? I think about that a lot. I made a lot of money, and I worked about 5 minutes away from my my kids instead of commuting to the city. And I even interviewed and I got an offer, but it was 20000 dollars left less. And I said to myself, I'm not going backwards around money, which is an interesting thing because I think it would have been a great job, and it would have been great for me. But what I did do, unfortunately, I had they brought in a person who was a change agent, uh, and he was the CEO. And he would look at me. I managed 30000000 dollar budgets around. I had a big job, vice president. He would look at me when I would speak as if, why don't you go clean the kitchen? I never had that before. I didn't understand. Why do I have this feeling that he is so demeaning to me? And he would kind of diminish me in big meetings. So I went to the the current president and the head of HR, and they said, we see what you we see what you're talking about. But our protocol is that you have to go talk to him directly. And I did. Well, I believe he is a narcissist. You do not take on a narcissist. You do not do it. And I believe he got furious. I the meeting was us. He goes, walk with me. And he smoked his cigarette as we walked around the building, not in his office, not respectfully. He got furious and said, I don't know what you're talking about. You're making it up. That's not true. And I believe I was kind of marked from that point on. I I was also promised, get the biggest house you can because you have a long career here. We were looking for a new home. We bought we went to another area. We bought it. 1 month after moving into the home was 9 11, and 1 month later, I was laid off with a hundred people, but laid off in a way that was absolutely brutal to me. And I snapped. I said, I have had enough. I've got to figure out why this bad stuff keeps happening to me. I mean, layoffs are layoffs, but it I felt betrayed really because I had been promoted. I had been given big raises. There seemed no reason to me. Uh, and I was sitting in my therapist's office crying. And this is a statement I will never forget, and I say it to other people. He said, I know from where you sit, this looks like the worst crisis you've ever faced. From where I sit, it's the first moment you can choose who you want to be in the world. He didn't say what. He said, who? And he said, who do you wanna be? And I said, I don't know. I wanna be you. And we laughed. We both and he said, what does that mean to you? And I said, I wanna help people, not hurt people and be hurt. I'm curious.

Robin: 27:09

What inspired you to start therapy, if I could ask? Because that requires a great amount of humility and self awareness. And sometimes when we get caught up in the cult of more and the disease of comparison, we don't wanna

Kathy: 27:21

do that. You know? You ask the most juicy questions. I love this the answer to this question because it's embarrassing about you don't want? Oh, no. I love it. Nothing's nothing's off off record here. What's the what's I'm an open book. Right. I had a friend over, a really dear friend spending the night with me in Connecticut. And I was telling her about the bosses that I'd had and that this boss was no different. And she said, you know, I love you, Kathy. I'm your staunchest supporter. But what's going on that every boss you've had is pretty bad, horrible to you? And then she said, I think therapy would help. And, Robin, I was so mad and hurt. I thought to myself, what kind of friend is this? It's a great friend. It's a great friend. And I went and got spiritual psychotherapy, which was life changing. Yeah. Wow. And he was the 1 at in that moment who said, when I said I wanna be you, he said, I think you'd make a great marriage and family therapist, which is a genre that is not offered in every school in every state, but it is in in Connecticut. She was right. What I've what I discovered is I don't suffer fools lightly. Right. I am not 1 who can I swear on your podcast? Sure. I don't like bullshit, and I don't like being lied to, and I don't like crappy leaders. And and I also don't like to be hemmed in. Like, back then, we all had to go into the office. There'd be a meeting at Monday morning at 8 with 50 of us. And and back then, 20 years ago, I I said out loud, why do we all have to be here? Why can't some of us call in? Why can't we cut this down, and we only have 1 representative from each division? It was like sacrilege. Right. You're not a team player. Right. So I I always felt hemmed in by other people's rules. So I said, you're not going back to corporate life, but you are gonna figure this out. And you are let's let's try becoming a therapist and see what happens. No. I was all in on becoming a therapist, but what happened was after doing the internship and starting a practice, it was not the professional identity that I wanted to end in because it's rough. Rape, incest, pedophilia, suicidality, drug addiction. 1 of my clients, his mother called and said he's not coming in. He's in jail. He attempted murder. And I thought I had a client. I've told this story a hundred times. Um, my kids little kids were sitting down for dinner. My client called me and said she was very depressed, and she said, I'm driving my car, and I'm gonna wrap it around a tree right now. This is it. And I thought to myself, I was not long out of my internship. I thought to myself for a split second, I don't have what it takes to help. That's what I thought. And the other thing to be brutally honest, why not? I don't want this in my life. Right. I snapped out of it. Thank goodness. That was a micro millisecond. We got her help. She did much, much better. We had a team of people helping. But I then said, this is not the the end of the journey. Right.

Robin: 30:49

Just more life reps. You needed those life reps to keep you moving on your path.

Kathy: 30:53

And I needed what I learned, which I'm doing all the talking, not letting you get a word in edgewise. But your podcast, Forged by Trust, I do wanna share this because I think it's relevant today. If if I think about what makes me a successful coach or a writer or an interviewer or whatever, I think trust is at the heart of it. And then when I think about, well, how do I demonstrate that? I think about my first months of internship as a therapist. And I had a guy who was a client who was mandated by the courts to come see us because he was physically abusing hitting his daughter, who I think was, like, 16. And I had I have kids. That is the most abhorrent thing, almost. So I'm sitting with him in the first session, and I'm repulsed. And he and and I'm thinking to myself, what am I gonna do here? I don't ugh. So the session ended. It didn't go too well. I talked to my supervisor who's an angel on earth, and she said, I'm gonna give you the best advice I can give you. You can't help someone that you don't love. You have got you have got to find something that you can love in this human being. She didn't say connect to. She didn't say empathize with. She said love. Mhmm. You have got to find it. I'm not gonna tell you where to find it. I'm not gonna tell you how. But people sense when you are sitting in judgment of them. Hundred percent. They sense when there's a separation, when there's disdain. You can only help them when you connect from the heart. Hundred percent. Like, what the heck? How am I gonna do this? The next session, I went in with, I gotta find something. I gotta find something. And I asked the question call him Fred. Fred, what what compels you? What draws you to hitting Susie? And he looked at me and he said, look at me choking up 20 years ago. She doesn't respect me, And it's the only way I have to have her respect me. Now we understand that hitting someone, you're never gonna get respect. But I looked in his face, Robin. That was his toolbox, and and guess what? He was hit as a child. His father hit him. Yep. That's right. And he respected his father for reasons. Who knows? But I just, like, not fell in love with him, but I felt devastated for him. That is

Robin: 33:37

a great way to put that. I felt devastated for

Kathy: 33:40

him. Devastated for him. This poor person wanted the love and respect of his daughter. So I said, I know that that's what you want. I feel it in my heart, but I'm not sure you know that hitting will never get that. And he because he I think I don't know. I didn't analyze it after, But he did amazingly in therapy. But if I'd come at him like, you dummy, this is not gonna work. Forget it. I think he felt that I felt for him. I haven't talked about this in years. But I think that empathy and I don't mean compassion. I literally mean sit your butt in that person's shoes. Hundred percent. And we don't have it today. Our very polarized we were not gonna go there. But I was talking to 3 Canadians I was having a meeting with, and I happened to I haven't met a Canadian I don't love, and I I think maybe I'm gonna move to Canada, Jokingly, but maybe not. And I asked them what they think of their prime minister, and they they all were taken aback. And they their eyes went wide, and I went, I'm sorry. And and this the senior guy said, 1 thing we're different about, we in Canada, we don't talk about politics. We don't even know who our friends voted for, and it is a 3 party system. I won't get political. But in my lifetime, I've seen empathy erode, and it's it's hurting us all. I think it's hurting us all.

Robin: 35:18

Empathy requires effort. It requires letting go of ego and vanity or insecurities or own personal confirmation biases. And it's work to walk a mile in someone else's shoes and take off yours first as Brene Brown says. Um, and it's it's an effort, but it's an effort so worth it because if you don't understand someone else's context, how can you possibly connect? If you're judging everything out of their mouth as right or wrong according to your own values, then if your own values are I mean, just as an analogy, you know, say that you think you live in an area that, you know, everyone around you agrees with you. Well, everyone around you could equate to about 70000 people. Alright? So 70000 people out of the billion couple billion on this planet is what? You know? And you and you fall into a group think confirmation bias mentality, and now you're judging the rest of the world. And then that's really not the the hard part of it or the worst part of it is goes back to the things that you were impacted by health. If you're constantly looking and seeing what's wrong or not even withdrawing, what doesn't agree with you, what's that doing internally? Our cells do not respond well to a hundred percent stress, anxiety, and all these negative emotions all the time. It ages us immensely. It destroys things in our bodies. Our genetics and biology play an awful lot into our health and well-being in the long run, but more so is our mental state in which we face life. And and when if you can't find a healthy way to engage life, you're dooming yourself to a shorter life. I'm sorry. I monologue on that.

Kathy: 37:14

Oh, no. I love it. I couldn't agree more. Yeah. And I and I have this other corollary to that. This same spiritual psychotherapist said to me, you know, Kathy, this is not doubling down on you, but you seem like a very judgmental person. I don't mean you.

Robin: 37:30

You

Kathy: 37:30

gotta love that person. I know. And he said, I don't mean bums on you. I don't mean cool. I mean that you say this is good. This is bad. I hate the rain. Judgments. Yeah. Yeah. And I ask all of you to try this. He said, I'm gonna give you an exercise. In the next week, I want you to do this. Every time you have a thought that involves a judgment, I want you to make a mental check mark and say, there goes 1 of those judging thoughts. But here's what I want you to do. Don't judge yourself for having the judgment. Let it go. And and there's 2 reasons for that. You can't change your thoughts if you don't know what your thoughts are. So separate. Give a moment of separation of your thoughts, and then lovingly, unjudgmentally let it go. I came in a week later, and I said, okay, doc. I got a problem. And he goes, what? I said, I must have done it wrong, and then we howled because there's the judgment. I said, I don't not have a judging thought. After 1004 hundred and 21 judging thoughts, I I I was like, where are the nonjudging thoughts? But that was making me sick. Right. You are right. And and that doesn't mean don't be discerning. I mean, we have to have a radar up. Do I wanna engage with you? Do I wanna talk to you? I don't think so. That's okay. Right. That's okay. But if everything is a judgment, it's good, bad, ugly, beautiful, stupid, smart, It's it's, you know, it's a Buddhist thought. You know? It it it is gonna make you miserable. It's gonna make you sick and miserable, and it's gonna separate you from the

Robin: 39:18

world. I think 1 of the easiest things to help on that path is if again, these are initial impulses we get as a human being from our conditioning that happens early on in life, and we can't we can't change that, but we can add to it. And so I think adding from the judging part to we can shift an emotion into curiosity. You shift it to the curiosity about the path that someone else is walking. Now it just becomes an excitement. It's like, oh, I wanna find out about that. That is just so different from me. I've never I I I'm I'm so much like you in so many of these areas. Again, feeling so bad. I'm talking more than I normally talk on my own. It's your podcast. Yeah. I know. Go for it. It's all about my guest. Um, but it's so true when you can add that element of curiosity because our own self awareness comes at a point of this isn't healthy. What I'm doing is not working. And it's a simple thing of take that same energy and just shift it to that that deep curiosity about the path of others, you're going to be so enlightened by newness. I mean, just it's just crazy how everyone is just so fascinating. Their past and and as you're describing, I've had that same experience when you're working espionage and recruiting spies for the FBI and inspiring people to confess to having done really, really bad things. And it's interesting. If someone's committed true espionage, I guarantee you that's not the only thing that's going sideways in their life because there's a decision making process that is really unhealthy and harmful to themselves and others. And a lot of it involved doing bad things to people. And a lot of times, they were people much younger. As I'll say, before getting really dark on it. Really? Oh my god. Yeah. And so I've had the same interview before where if you're trying to inspire someone to confess about all the heinous things they did to someone because you're trying to save other lives and get them into therapy, If you're sitting in judgment of that person, are they going to share with you? If you're shaming them, if you're taking that shame and showing it to them, are they going to share with you? No. It's about not empathy. Like like you're saying, it's not about agreeing with someone. It's about understanding the life that they led to that point. And and what and how did you say that? It it's it's oh, you you had to say. Um, it's that it's that phrase that, um, seeing there, it's basically seeing him, seeing the pain that they went through and Yeah. And so connecting there because very rarely is someone so mentally broken that it's, you know, I mean, when we're dealing with serial killers that are high in psychopathy, that is a broken brain. Right. Most people don't have broken brains. They have broken experiences. And so bringing someone back from that where they don't wanna do harm, but they didn't realize the harm they're doing, that's where you're talking. That's where finding that brave comes in. So

Kathy: 42:34

I have to ask you a question. You gotta come on my podcast soon, and we'll you get you get the like too much. No. No. But can I ask you something? I don't understand. Do you find that people involved in espionage? And by that, you mean they're spying against their country. Right? Is that it? Yeah. Deep betrayal. Do are you finding that because they've done heinous things, there's a hatred of themselves and this is Hundred percent. That's and spying is is what is it? Spying is a way they can mitigate that self hatred. Generally,

Robin: 43:14

in general, like most people that are dealing with life's greatest challenges, they're wound collectors. They've been wronged and they're going to right the wrongs, and and they have a scorecard, and then again, take out retribution on others. Or they feel like a victim. You know, they're addicted being a victim mentality. And so most of these things come from toxic shame earlier in life, insecurities, the the as we're alluding to in 1 of the books I I love is body keeps a score. The trauma that they experienced earlier in life without a broken broken genetic and biological brain, but they've had broken experiences that they're trying to overcome these things. I mean, we all have these life arcs. I mean, you went through your life arc. You didn't have the braveness you needed and the power inside to to break out of that arc for a while. These people have a a deeper arc that's been ingrained so powerfully that they're taking it out in all these ways that are extremely unhealthy, um, to themselves and without even realizing it. So, yeah, it's it's just broken.

Kathy: 44:16

That's heartbreaking. It is heartbreaking. And

Robin: 44:19

and then and and so in Cadenza is the most incredible thing that people sometimes have a hard time with is that this is what we're talking about. This is what where you make a connection. This is not saying these people actions were righteous or good, or that we agree with it. But what you can say is you can recognize the behavior and say that behavior happened because there's something heartbreaking in there.

Kathy: 44:46

Now what are we gonna do about it? This is the key that I I wanna just leave folks with. Yeah. We can be I mean, I've I'm no saint. Don't get me wrong. But we we can be self righteous. We can say, what a dummy to believe that. I think the the point is, what do you want in life? Do you wanna connect? Do you wanna learn? Do you wanna be curious? Do you wanna open doors, or do you just wanna shut it down? But to your point, it takes a lot of work Yeah. To find something to love in somebody that is doing something abhorrent. And, uh, you know, again, I I'm not an expert at this all the time or in my personal life all the time, but I'm a lot happier and healthier that I try. That's what I would say.

Robin: 45:33

Yeah. It's perfectly said. Whew. What a journey has been some art. So, Kathy, well, let's talk about the spark that put us on the brave path in a couple areas that people can start focusing on. So if you're listening to this, you're watching this, you're saying, my gosh. I need a little bit more of this healthy in my life because that's what it comes down to, I think, is having a good healthy life here. Like you said, success in here is the health that we have in inside ourselves because longevity should be really our goal. And longevity, not just living a long life, but a long life of high functioning emotional con connectivity with the world and ourselves. That's a great goal. And that's not going to come from title and success as a societal define it or, uh, or a little niche, But those healthy connections we make, and it comes from finding our brave.

Kathy: 46:33

Alright. You're asking me where do we start? Um, I have something, not to be salesy, but I have something called the career path self assessment, 11 pages of questions I wish someone had asked me when I was 18. And if I What

Robin: 46:46

a what a great question. You know, you just answered that question. So what would you ask your 20 year old self or tell your 20 year old self now that you knew now? No. No. They didn't know then. You got it.

Kathy: 46:54

That's it. Perfect. And it's yeah. If you answer these questions honestly, I and they're everything from how you stood out as a child. You know, was there a traumatic moment that is still with you? Every job you ever had, what you loved, what you hated, what your shining moments were, what you never wanna do it again. It's amazing. What I what I wanna say to you is take this thing, do it, and we'll have a link to just downloading it for free. What I think you're gonna see are there there are some dots to connect. And what I want everybody to understand, and this is just fact, everyone is like their thumbprint. They are unlike anyone else. They don't see it, though. So they might say, yeah, but I'm a marketer and there's a million digital marketers. I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about the amalgam of who you are, the trials, the tribulations, the traumas, the ancestry, the languages you speak, where you lived, everything that makes you you, your hobbies, your passions, what you're angry about. You have got to understand that if you want a happy life, but most people don't. So, you know, if we look at these 7 gaps and they are, you know, not recognizing your special talents, communicating from fear, not strength, isolating from influential support, reluctance to ask for what you want and deserve, acquiescing instead of saying stop to mistreatment, losing sight of your thrilling dream for your life, and the final 1 is allowing the past to continue to define you. Not in a good way, typically. If most people have more than 1 of these gaps, where I would ask you to start to find brave is start to recognize how you are amazing, and everyone is. And if you resist it and don't see it and don't believe it, there are steps in the book. You know, can you can work with me. 1 is get your tush on LinkedIn. And I Robin, I say that I can look at people for 3 minutes on LinkedIn, not 5, 3. And I can tell so much about you and your career that you don't even know. Like, are you hiding? Are you not aware of what your talents are? Are you not aware of the outcomes of who you are in the world? You've got to do this work. If you wanna be happy, if you want to understand how to be of service of other with to other people in ways that make you proud, you've got to start here. That's what that's what I would say.

Robin: 49:32

I know. I just wanna talk to you all day long.

Kathy: 49:35

Oh, that's so kind.

Robin: 49:37

That is such good, powerful content. This is I I I can't thank you from the bottom of my heart for having probably the greatest conversation of the year so far. Oh, it's

Kathy: 49:49

so kind.

Robin: 49:50

And I feel so for everyone listening that's tuned in the show before, I apologize for talking more than I ever talk on these things. But I love it. Kathy, you just inspired me to wanna share. So with that, I wanna make sure that what didn't I ask you that I should have asked you that you wanted to make sure you shared before we did go? We went down a lot of roads, but I wanna make sure that we got in some nooks and crannies that I might have missed.

Kathy: 50:16

I don't think you missed a thing. I think we're good. Unless there's a burning thing that makes you say, wait. I don't get it. If there's 1 of those, I'm happy to answer.

Robin: 50:24

Oh my gosh. No. We we hit the core content, I think, of a life well filled, a life well fulfilled. Um, the the starting point, what to do next, um, it's beautiful. Thank you so much for coming on and

Kathy: 50:38

sharing. Thank you for your deep, deep questions. I know that we're simpatico in a lot of ways for you. We do to even go the directions you went. Thank you for digging deep and having me. I appreciate it so much. Uh, thank you. We'll do this again. Yes. And I'm sending you the materials to come on my show soon. Gotta have you. I'll talk to you soon, Kathy. Thank you. You. Bye.

Robin: 51:00

Thank you for tuning in to another episode of Forged by Trust. Remember, if you want to forge trust, it's not how you make people feel about you that matters. It's how you make them feel about themselves. If you're interested in more information about how I can help you forge your own trust building, communication, and interpersonal strategies as a speaker, check Your coach or as a trusted advisor for you or your organization, please visit me on my website at robindreeke. com. See you next time on Forged by Trust.